Bringing Virtual Reality to the Labor Force

NATHAN MENKEN: You are in bringing VR to the labor force, so virtual reality. If anyone is in the wrong class, we'll let you guys go out now. And then we'll talk about you once you leave. So, let me know if there's anything you repeat as we're going through this. But my name is Nathan Menken, assistant BDC manager for Swinerton builders out of our Denver branch. Some cover central group, so that's Denver, Austin, and Atlanta as well so.

We're seeing a lot of it being used, not only on the design side, but also being used within the actual construction process, and getting into the hands of the guys in the field. So that's what we're going to be focusing on today. Not going to be going over anything as far as what system to use, or best practices as much, but trying to talk more on the aspects of why it is valuable to use VR with our crews in the field.

So that will be the main focus for today is talking through why we see it's valuable, and then also understanding how to use it. And then we'll show some examples at the end with the people on our projects as well. So see if this goes over. Cool.

So if you have on the app there, you can see kind of a little bit of that description from the app. So there's a description there. And as you can see our speakers, none of those are me. So we might have had a little change up in who was speaking for this due to some people being sick and so forth.

But. I, wanted, to say you guys this just so you can see the files and links there for the handout. It's right there on the app. So you can download it if you want to use it later on as well. Just to make sure you guys are aware that you can get that handout at the end right off the app as well.

What is the purpose of VR? So, you've probably have seen this visual before. I like the visual it makes. Kind of a nice understanding of what's going on. So you can see there for you guys on the left there, you got the reality so that's what we understand what we see every day.

That's the reality of what we're working with. And then that kind of moves into that AR, that augmented reality. So it's still real life, but then we're adding another screen inside of there as well. And then we're kind of mixing in to the mixed reality. Kind of a little bit of both, and then we kind of work away to the AV, and then to the VR realm.

So for anyone that isn't familiar with it, is anyone not familiar with VR terminology? People maybe still learning, understanding a little bit better about it. Seems like everyone's heard of it, knows it. Who's implementing it, I guess, within your companies right now, if you want to raise your hands? Perfect.

So this will be a pretty simple class, then you guys will be on the same page. Awesome. So as we're looking at it here, four areas that we feel are really beneficial to using VR within our construction, and then specifically within our realm of working with our field crews on the VR side providing the experience. So we're giving that experience, letting them understand, not only are we now taking your 2D, putting it into a 3D.

But now we're taking the next step past 3D, and putting it into a realm of the actual VR to be fully immersed. That experience realm. So we're giving them the experience to understand what's there.

That then gives them understanding, lets them know more reality of what's going on within the projects as opposed to just being able to see it on someone's screen, or things like that, or looking out on to the aspect. That actually gives them more understanding. And then because of that, their perception understanding what's really going on, better ways to understand how to build. We'll look at those case scenarios, which will kind of help us out reinforcing the understanding of the perceptions. And then lastly coordination, as well.

So obviously we're always trying to coordinate all of our projects, especially GC side. That's my main focus. And so all these things coming together helps us within our coordination process. So experience.

So we have the space, the finishes and details. So if you're looking at a VR realm, the nice thing that it provides us is usually on a 2D environment, you could have your 2D there. But you're looking at it. You're able to take off maybe on your on screen, understand your dimensions between things, but the experience really allows you to step into it, understand what the space is going to feel like, get a better understanding of that involvement in there. And also allows them to better understand what those finishes are going to look like.

Obviously, you have some little data, things like that. But actually understanding with those finishes are provides a huge benefit for them so they can better understand what the details need to be involved to make those nice finishes from our design team, and what the owners were wanting for that project. So it really brings into it. And I think as a coordinator myself, it's always a hard thing to try to make sure you're bringing your team within your construction project.

So the more we can immerse everyone within that realm of the VR experience, and within the realm of the model that we're working and building off of, the more we can help each other out there. So that realm there helps us on the experience side. So it gets them into that experience of the VR, which then improves their understanding. And again as I mentioned before, we're taking it from just that 2D, if it's on our PDFs, or on the right that you can see in our Revit format.

If we're in that Revit format, now we're actually pushing ourselves within the space. So we're allowing them to be able to get that understanding so the big thing too, as we're trying to get them involved, is also reviewing this and making sure we're on the same page and getting their feedback.

Obviously there are guys in the field, our superintendents, or foremen. They're all going to be putting the items into the building as well, so having them actually get their feedback, it's a huge benefit for us, because then we can relate that back to the design team if there's anything they feel like it's not going to be working, or anything that's going to be off. So again, we allow that space, understanding it better, and then understanding where those restrictions are, and things like that.

We can get their input, and let us know. Sometimes as the coordinator, you can do multiple projects. But sometimes if there's something there that may be different than a standard project, it's a good thing that Super's input, it's good getting that foreman's input, the guys that are actually installing these items, getting their input to allow us to better understand how we could build it together. Again, we're trying to improve our schedules. We're trying to reduce our costs. The more we can get all those things put together and allow that input from those guys, that's really going to help in our perspective.

And then to the perception aspect so we gain, or increase our aspect, so obviously we start off with a 2D environment. So here we've got our drawings, probably from the design team here. We're getting those as a GC, understanding what's going on in that process, trying to get more clarification, figure out kind of what's going on. We have a good lay out, but we need to understand more.

Now we get the architects model, or the engineers model. Now we can go to get that 3D realm, which was a huge step forward to have that 3D environment. I know for myself I learn and understand things better when I can see it within a 3D realm.

And so for me, that was a huge benefit, getting into the construction industry, knowing that we can put things into a 3D realm. And I think that helps our foreman and in our supers, as well, within the field to see that in a 3D environment. Sometimes there's that learning curve, and helping people to get to that realm. The more we can get our guys into a 3D, guys or ladies, into that realm helps us out to have that 3D environment.

So then now we're saying, OK, we've got to 2D, we've got our 3D, now we're trying to bring in our existing site. What's around us? Obviously there are different platforms, Infoworks, and a variety of other items that you can use with your site existings. The more we can understand what's there helps us out. So not only do we now take the 2D, the 3D, and our existing site, we can then put our actual model in that environment.

Now is modeled everything, and the whole idea that we're trying to do with the VR now is pretty much full proof, and eliminated as much as we can on any future issues. Obviously that's the main core of co-ordinating is trying to eliminate any future issues. But the more we can actually put this into VR, we can see the building that we're actually going to be building and understand why and how those pieces are all going to come together.

So on this we could do a nice site logistics review with our teams if we needed to, and getting the actual input. Understanding hey that's a pretty tight site. Obviously if things are buttoned up there, how those connections are going to work? Are we taking down a lane when we have materials coming in? What's a pedestrian look like for people, keeping them safe. And then also what kind of cranes, what kind of lifts, well how we're getting materials in?

So it's a really-- you're trying to bring this into their environment, and the more they give you feedback, the better it's going to help you out and help the entire team out understanding what's going on in that process.

And it comes down to coordination. So obviously with coordination, we're doing design options, looking at those options. Or doing MEP systems, means and methods, design intent, we're doing RFI's, owner driven changes.

Were obviously doing all that are ready within our coordination process. But putting that now into the VR, you can really get a lot of those things answered quickly. You can really understand what the intent is supposed to be and then actually play it out into real terms once it's built. It's just are the spacings in this room going to work? Are the finishes in this room going to work? Are what RFI's do we need to create because certain things maybe might not be elevation wise? We're trying to get the ceiling higher. Or we're trying to minimize any details and keep them hidden if there are mechanical systems, and so forth.

So we're really already doing a lot of things in coordination, now we're just trying to make it submersive for more people to get their input and to better understand from their point of view how we can all play this out. So again, like I said, we're already doing a lot of this certain coordination, we're just now putting it into a new environment within the VR realm, and therefore it's more collaborative, and allows us better to understand what's going to be built and put into the field.

So right here we've got a couple scenarios for how we've been seeing this within our projects. We've got a drywall foreman, and so for them, kind of we're working on a baseline review for that system. We're going to look at an example for a drywall superintendent, and their review on the engineering side, product superintendent, as far as a designer view, coordination and finished reviews, and then as an estimator as well. And kind of getting them understanding from each one of their perspectives how we're really able to pull that information and use that to better help ourselves and in our processes.

So drywall foreman. So as you can see here, this is the actual drywall foreman there in the picture. And we've got him hooked up with one of our VR systems. And we were giving him the whole view of the product he was working on. So he's going through there, understanding what's going on with this soffits, and understanding from the design intent, what we're trying to accomplish.

So you can see there on his left image down there on the bottom, so that system is actually a quadruple system the way it triples down. And so originally we had kickers and a variety of other structural above there. So he was looking at, understanding from his perspective, how can we frame this better. How can we get this more understood.

He looks at it and realized that all I can do is actually suspend this, and actually don't even need my studs the way I thought the structure was going to lay out. And so we ended up just kind of suspending that. And the way that worked allowed a lot of our mechanical system to stay and be able to run the routes the were going to run originally without having to now do some jogs and everything else.

So getting his perspective, we realized oh we could modify the system even though obviously the engineer was looking at it in one perspective, but the way we can rearrange our system to work out better, still maintaining our structural integrity, and maintaining that what we need to. We're now able to keep all of our mechanical systems. We're not having to change our ceiling height at all. We're not having to tweak or write new RFI's on different mechanical systems or layouts. We're able to move forward and get that system to roll out.

And the other image on the right there, you can see that curve in understanding. So a huge piece too is just getting the foreman, whatever trade they may be a part of, understanding how that's going to lay out. The more they can visualize it and see it within that VR realm, understand it, come up close within their goggles, understand and walk around it, and get that whole idea, that's going to help his schedule, understanding what he really needs to lay up for materials, and understanding hey how many guys I need on this. Gives them a better understanding.

Obviously he's thought about that before, but it brings better clarity because it's an actual visual understanding within that realm of how is everything going to be built within that system. And then drywall superintendent, one of our drywall superintendents, so he was reviewing right there, you can see on the right, he was reviewing our kick bracing. And so he was going through with the engineer. Understanding, hey, we're going to have all the systems. We obviously have pipe, duct, and fire trying to all fit in this little space here with this soffit area here, so how do we try to get everything to work.

So what we ended up doing with him and getting his input back once you put on the goggles, looked around and said, hey originally there was a lot more kickers in here, there was a lot more structure, because that was the way the original design intent was done. And so what we realized later was hey let's just beef up these kickers in here, give us the strength we need but now we can minimize how many kickers we have in there. And now we can get all the systems that fit a lot more efficiently, and then allow our schedule to be faster as well, because we're not having to put in as much time from our framer, therefore the guys on the system side can get in there faster.

So again, the whole idea of my view of coordination is to improve our schedules, improve our costs, and be more efficient as builders. The more we can help our superintendents along the way, it helps the entire team.

This is actually one of our superintendents that was on a project we had not too long ago. So he went ahead and reviewed the baseline design, understanding what we had in there for model, and pointing out certain areas for logistics and phasing. So we're obviously looking at it from our own coordination aspect and trying to understand, hey this is how we think it's going to work. This is how we're seeing it. And obviously getting out there for our own perspective as VDC people to understand what's going on the site.

But obviously he is more familiar, understanding how he's going to lay things out. So getting him in the goggles and saying, hey. Right there you can see on the bottom right we've got basically that's a washer and dryer equipment. So we've got all these items, and the issue is that we were putting in something right above that deck where you can see all that plumbing and everything else.

So we had to maintain our height in that parking garage structure essentially because we had some stuff going on for the valet system above there. And so the idea was getting his input, letting us know what he thought about it, and understanding hey, if we're going through this process, what are we going to need to shift. Is there anything we can maybe reroute, slope differently, or change our sizes on?

So getting his actual input into it really sped up our process and allowed us to speed up our coordination meetings as well. Feel like sometimes within the coordination process, you're trying to get everyone to review systems, but getting the people that need to be in there fully immersed helps your schedule out on making sure people are reviewing what needs to be reviewed. So then there's no surprises when things start getting installed, and there's no surprises from obviously the superintendent, but we see it also trickles down to owners and designers as well to helping them understand. You took this. We tweaked a couple of things that your guys are aware of. Now we're able to keep moving forward. So, having his input was a huge help for us on that.

And then this is one of our estimators. So he's right now in a VR space going through the system. So this is kind of a review of early design models. And this is actually a SketchUp file, which is pretty cool to work with. We don't always get SketchUp's. Usually, we're getting a Revit type format or a CAD format. So I feel like definitely a testament making sure we can use all the file formats out there right now.

So he ended up just going through, understanding what was in the model, figuring out what he needed to do for taking off. And so he was going through these early revisions, understanding what's in the model, getting his counts, understanding his estimates better to help out on this renovation project.

So it really doesn't matter how big or how small your job is, if it's a nice little remodel right here, then either way it's going to help you guys out and help everyone to have, obviously the estimators, but then everyone else input within that VR space.

It's easy to put a price point and be like anything over this price point, then we'll throw VR on there. Trying to get out of that pattern and realize there's that benefit no matter what that dollar amount is for that project, or the complexities.

Sometimes we don't fully do coordination on jobs that we think it's going to be a simple job. And a lot of times we've had simple jobs and not done coordination. We realized man, we should have done coordination, or we should have put this in VR, or we should have-- trying to limit the amount of time we're saying we should have done this, or we should have done this, and realizing if we do it at the beginning and it's a standard for us, that helps us out and we know we're doing it right the first time.

We're not just trying to say we don't want to spend time or money on this thing. We can get away with it we know we're doing. But no matter how many jobs you do, there's always something new to learn and always something that we can better implement as a team and as builders ourselves. So it was fun having the estimator get involved, because sometimes you don't always get to get the estimators involved on this aspect. But getting his input, then he could relay that on to the owner, and then him and the owner could actually talk about the model aspects. And then he can fully understand what was going on within the project as well.

So we have the handout sheet right here. Kind of tough to see on this side. So what we try to add into these handouts for you guys is understanding, bring reverse reality to the labor force. So it's kind of nice you guys can take this back with you. Why do we use VR? Understanding that information a little bit better, closing the gap from office to field. It's been a big piece that we've seen going through a lot of these scenarios is understanding.

We've got to coordinate. We've got a model from the architect or engineer. We can put it ourselves. Now we're getting the inputs. If we're not modeling it, then we'll get it from them or will model it ourselves. Now we're getting the input from subs if we're not modeling those systems. Now we're trying to put all these things together. And then when we are actually handing it over, we're trying to limit those surprises, or limit people not fully being aware of what's going on.

So one, that's getting them involved in the coordination from the field side and making sure all your subs that need to be a part of it are part of it, getting your foreman and your super in there, and then also now bringing them into the VR space to get their feedback and get their understanding. So that's been a huge benefit for us not only to understand what the things need to be changed, but also making that a standard. Really streamlines things for us really well.

A lot of times we've been using VR on more of the design, that early phase, to kind of get input from people. Is this a good carpet? What are these wall layouts? Do we need to change anything? Trying to understand quickly from the architect and owner at the beginning with a phase, but then that can wear off and you don't think maybe you need as much later down the road within the actual construction phase itself.

A big thing too, we found as well, is helping us out of mock ups because you can get your physical mock up and that's pretty sweet to have. It looks nice. It's on your site. Everyone can walk up, touch it, and things like that.

And then we used to have-- We also sometimes do a coordination, so we can have that mock up within the design model that we were handed from them. But now putting it into a VR realm, you can walk around that thing. You can an entire room as your mock up. You can understand finishes. You can change your lighting. So having that VR realm as well for mock ups not only helps our owners, but also helps our foremen better understand. Hey, this is the intent. We approved this way back when. Now let's make sure we're meeting that and getting everything down and to match that as well.

So yeah, this handout here on the app for you guys as well. I know probably pretty similar as you guys are-- sounds like a lot of you guys are already in the VR space and using it within your companies.

But again, just what we've been seeing and learning, is it's just been a huge benefit for us to be able to have this implemented through all of our aspects of construction, not just in the early phases. But putting it through the whole time so that everyone can be a part of it. And once you've got your models and everything else, it's pretty easy to keep kind of getting it out there.

And we'll use a variety between the cardboard and the actual rift as well but we're trying to always make sure everyone's being able to see it, because the more input you can have, the better you are to create your project, and the less it takes for issues down the road, which is our main concern in the coordination business.

Any questions? I know that was kind of a fast process. I know it sounds like you guys have a lot of already VR experience and things like that. Anything you guys are curious about trying to implement?

How do you choose your headset? Really it just depends how whatever works for you guys. We went with the Rift just based off of the sensors, how they get set up. We've found that it was a lot easier. We don't want -- some of the sensors you kind of have to get them pretty well dialed in before they'll get set up correctly. So the Rift was nice because we could take it with us to an architect's office, we could take it with us anywhere, pretty quick simple. You get your controllers. You'll hang yourself up in your space and it's pretty nicely done. So for us, that just worked out

Well. Yes.

AUDIENCE: So what exactly, is the issue of the superintendent, in particular, not really buying in--

NATHAN MENKEN: Right.

AUDIENCE: It's not my own. I don't trust this. So how does using the VR help them buy into the process of there is value. And while you feel like to go out and double check things like you always have--

NATHAN MENKEN: For sure.

AUDIENCE: -- to make it more efficient.

NATHAN MENKEN: Yeah, so the question would be how are we getting superintendent's buy in to use the VR experience.

AUDIENCE: So once, did this help it? What is promised to get that buy in?

NATHAN MENKEN: To get the buy in, correct. So it's kind of a two layer effect there. We first got to get their buy in to the model itself, and that's been a big hurdle with some of our superintendents. They had so much information, they don't feel like they need the coordination aspect.

So it's getting them to buy into the model aspect, which is kind of the same thing building with escalators as well. I kind of see them similarly. We had to get people involved and be understanding. Where are most of architects are modeling now on Revit, we can trust more models and we were be able to before, and getting that process.

So for us it was creating everything, and just kind of holding their hand to get them into that process. And once they get it on and they actually see everything, then a lot of their disbelief goes away, and they start trusting it. Oh, I can actually see this. They, I think sometimes they call it cartoons, a lot of superintendents have told me. Yeah, what do you do with your cartoons? And it's like wow, I'm a little offended that you would call them cartoons, but--

Exactly. But getting them to actually be in there and see the detail, especially like on if we're doing anything concrete wise, and we actually are trying to figure out how anchors and things are going to work. If they see the detail, they'll start believing it. So it just kind of holding their hand and then maybe trying to push them in the right direction. I don't think-- it's definitely time. You just need to kind of keep going after it and after it.

The nice thing is a lot of model base is a lot more prevalent than it was, and a lot of those guys are seeing the benefits. Plus we're using it the whole way through. So if they don't hop on at the beginning, they're going to feel behind the whole way.

AUDIENCE: So, you're just doing like a 360 and they can see it on the screen? In your experience, does putting them in the VR help with that?

NATHAN MENKEN: Yeah, because see it on the screen. First, it was let's get it let's have you look at your screen first. Don't just come over to my, or come to my computer and try to show you. I want you to actually use it, so you feel like it. So then just the next step. Now you're in it. Now, you understand more, and that brings more questions up and helps our review better to help them do it. So it's just kind of that process of kind of that baby steps to get them there.

But once they're in, they love it. And they're like, oh well when am I going to do this next? And then once you get that, you know you've got them, and it's a lot easier the next job.

AUDIENCE: [INAUDIBLE] to add to that, when you're in virtual reality, it's a 1:1 scale, so whereas [INAUDIBLE] you're looking at it sort of small. When you're in virtual reality, you feel the enormity of [INAUDIBLE] It feels real because of the size.

NATHAN MENKEN: Exactly, yeah thanks for pointing that out. That was one of the things that happened to us with a owner. we were talking about this measurement. And we're like, we don't have enough space here. And they were like no 3:6, no, that'll be just fine. And then we actually got him in it, and he walked around and realized, I need way more space than 3:6. So that was obviously an owner, but still that whole idea, like you said, now you get one to one it's a real reality of what's going on.

[INAUDIBLE]

So we use Fuser. So we would kind of use their BIM package essentially. And so we just set it up where we've got our VR computers. So whoever wants to get it set up kind of already have that avenue set up for them.

AUDIENCE: Can this be used on [INAUDIBLE]

NATHAN MENKEN: Oh for sure. Yeah, for sure. So can it be used for exteriors as well? So similar to how we had that site logistics, so we're kind of the on site logistics, but you could probably expand that however you want it to. It's just taking the information already have, adding whatever model content you need to add to it to better understand. We do that in coordination where we say, my thought on LED is it's not as much. There a certain LED you need to maintain, but you want to have whatever is going to be in that model you've got to coordinate to.

If it's going to cause an issue, let's put it in the Model So we can coordinate it. Same idea here, if there's going to be a potential issue that we need to think through, let's put it in our model, get the VR experience fully there, so therefore there's no surprises when we're in construction. Yes.

AUDIENCE: So just a term, we read [INAUDIBLE]

NATHAN MENKEN: Yeah. Yeah, Fuser has a really nice plug-in with Revit. And so it works out really well for us. It's a pretty instant, not too long of a wait time between saving it, pushing it out, and we re-coming up. The nice thing is too is you can walk throughs, and then you and the owner can talk though those things prior to getting going as well.

AUDIENCE: Is it just with Revit, or [INAUDIBLE].

NATHAN MENKEN: We just pretty much use the Revit format because that's where all of our models are being set, and so we want to make sure we have all the families and everything associated. That's the big thing is making sure your model it just isn't fake stuff. And so we try to make sure that if it's in Revit, it has a family, it's tied to the accurate sizes and everything else. Cool. Any other questions? Yep.

AUDIENCE: You were talking about using the goggles to the clients. What type of computer or laptop do you use to run that?

NATHAN MENKEN: You know, I know a gaming machine, but I've not seen the specs on it. So I couldn't answer that question accurately. But essentially our--

AUDIENCE: [INAUDIBLE]

NATHAN MENKEN: Yeah.

AUDIENCE: [INAUDIBLE]

NATHAN MENKEN: Yeah. Yeah, I mean it's about it's about that thick and it's got fans that sounds like it's taking off. But it does a really good job.

AUDIENCE: [INAUDIBLE]

NATHAN MENKEN: Exactly, yeah. But yeah, as long as you get that set up correctly the first time, it'll work out.

AUDIENCE: [INAUDIBLE]

NATHAN MENKEN: Yeah exactly. Yeah, so I apologize I don't know more. Zane was the guy that actually looked into all of our computer set up for that side of things.

AUDIENCE: [INAUDIBLE]

NATHAN MENKEN: Yeah.

AUDIENCE: It depends on what you're doing--

NATHAN MENKEN: Yeah, what's your models, things like that. How much you're pushing.

AUDIENCE: [INAUDIBLE]

NATHAN MENKEN: Yeah, no that makes sense. Yep.

AUDIENCE: I heard you say like you had to [INAUDIBLE]. Are you talking about [INAUDIBLE]?

NATHAN MENKEN: You're talking about going from what I when saying going from Revit out?

AUDIENCE: Yeah.

NATHAN MENKEN: Yeah, so Fuser has a plug-in that goes right into, right in there. So what I'm saying out, I'm just saying I'm clicking on it and letting it go over to the Fuser set up. So they've got a cloud setup that works with that. So it will generate it and then push it into your file version on the web.

AUDIENCE: [INAUDIBLE]

NATHAN MENKEN: No, we've got the option for SketchUp going over to Fuser.

AUDIENCE: [INAUDIBLE]

NATHAN MENKEN: Yep.

AUDIENCE: Is there a lot of time and management in order to [INAUDIBLE] on and off a lot of layers, So when you had [INAUDIBLE]

NATHAN MENKEN: Right, so a lot of that really depends on the type of project we have. And so when we're getting a model from the architect engineer, we try to do our construct ability review. Because sometimes you get random layers, like there's room boxes, sometimes that pops up in your Revit file if you're not hiding those things and taking care of. So we try to vet those out, and then we can have a standard for all of our subs use. But we want to keep that information in there just so that everyone can understand what's everything in our area. Yeah.

AUDIENCE: So, in difference in experience between superintendents, brought their goggles, and bringing them back to the office and giving them [INAUDIBLE] So those set up costs for the hardware, [INAUDIBLE] Why would it be different, in your experience, [INAUDIBLE] how much better is one experience versus the other. Or is it worth at all considering the hardware goggles with the phones that the guys seem to be already carrying in their pockets. How would [INAUDIBLE] and let them stand there and say, ah, that's what it's supposed to look like.

AUDIENCE: [INAUDIBLE]

AUDIENCE: Right, and those are the applications that I've seen [INAUDIBLE]

AUDIENCE: And what you're getting at [INAUDIBLE]

AUDIENCE: It is. [INAUDIBLE]

NATHAN MENKEN: It really just depends what we're going after really, what we're trying to show the superintendent, what we're trying to get the impact on. Most the time we've already got everything established, since for us, we've already purchased the goggles. So sometimes it's nice to have them come in, or we go to them, then they get more immersive. Or we're just trying to say, hey, do a quick check. Then he can just grab his cardboard, do a quick check, and he's saying then he's good, then he's good.

So it really just depends how we're trying to do it. Most of the time, we're going to try to set it up where he can get into the goggles the first time, and then his cardboard's more for his own use as he needs to.

AUDIENCE: [INAUDIBLE]

NATHAN MENKEN: Yeah, that's a big piece. And then there's licensing to for the Fuser software, as well. So just depending on what package you go with.

AUDIENCE: Right, and the software requires to go. The immersive experience with the real goggles, that's a real use of software. But cardboard-- [INAUDIBLE]

AUDIENCE: Where Autodesk is like a $30 a month subscription, and then you [INAUDIBLE] $30 a month

NATHAN MENKEN: Right, Revit Live is great, definitely a great tool for sure. I mean it's nice in that aspect that once we knew we went to Fuser because we knew we were going to need the show, we were going to need a few more detail than just Revit Live. Revit Live is really good, but there's not as many features within Revit Live. And so we knew for the aspect that we were going to show owners and architects, we needed to make sure we had a system that was going to back it up. And now that we own it, now we can use it on our projects as well.

But yeah, like you said Revit Live is a really good system. It's just not as many features as Fuser has, plus the graphics and being able to modify actual colors, and lights, and luminaires things like that, and changing furniture layouts. It's a really big piece for us. Really good question. Any other questions at all? Anything you guys have seen from your own perspectives? It sounds like you guys have really good experiences as well, so I think the more, obviously we're talking about and trying to better understand how we can improve ourselves, the better we are so.

AUDIENCE: [INAUDIBLE]

NATHAN MENKEN: Taking it out to a job site? Yeah we have just so that we can get that information.

AUDIENCE: [INAUDIBLE]

NATHAN MENKEN: We kind of rope in his area off, so we kind of prep them and we have spotters as well.

AUDIENCE: Probably a reality that [INAUDIBLE] satisfy the need [INAUDIBLE] computer at all.

NATHAN MENKEN: True, yeah.

AUDIENCE: [INAUDIBLE] So trying to get them on board, can probably be more challenging aspect on a whole.

NATHAN MENKEN: It really is. Yeah, it's like trying to get your super to always carries an iPad, or trying to make sure you get all of the technologies consistently. So like I was mentioning earlier, the more you can just kind of keep doing it. And my game is, I'll set it up, I'll get everything ready, so you have to do is just step into this environment. The more I do the back leg, then they're a lot more accepting instead of--

If that first time, if they have to do anything, it's going to be a lot of work. So the more you can prep it where it's an easy walk into, then it's going to be a lot easier.

AUDIENCE: I get that [INAUDIBLE] But as soon as that user interacts with the wrong object, for some reason they can't scrub--

NATHAN MENKEN: True.

AUDIENCE: [INAUDIBLE]

NATHAN MENKEN: Right. Yeah, that first time you especially show a super, or someone, or foreman, or somebody else, you've got to have your details accurate, otherwise they're get to be like this isn't, still a cartoon. And I'm not going to trust it. No, it's a good point. Thank you for saying that. Yep.

AUDIENCE: A lot of issues with field blaming every issue on BIM, and our general super's always on board. He's like would this not have happened if we didn't use BIM. [INAUDIBLE] is the fact that you didn't double check the instillation.

NATHAN MENKEN: For sure.

[INTERPOSING VOICES]

Yeah.

AUDIENCE: [INAUDIBLE] very skeptical and so they use that as a scapegoat [INAUDIBLE]

NATHAN MENKEN: Yeah. And that's our big piece too with our whole project. The matter if it's super P, whoever it is, we're trying to get, BIM is in a sense, been in there a little silo. Right. It's been in that little BIM silo where it's like, oh you're a BIM person, you handle coordination, or you do this, or whatever. And if BIM messes it up, then it's an issue.

But we're trying to open the doors, especially with VR, allows us open those doors a lot bigger. And say no, let's get the whole project team. So therefore, and I talked to the super once who are saying, why do we have these issues. And then he like, Well I should've sat in your coordination meetings. And it's like, we invite you all the time. I know busy. I know you have a lot going on, but--

AUDIENCE: So they're [INAUDIBLE]

NATHAN MENKEN: Yeah.

AUDIENCE: Oh look, we've got this problem. The whole point--

NATHAN MENKEN: Exactly. For sure. Yeah. No, the more you get everyone's input, the better project is. Just that hard--

AUDIENCE: [INAUDIBLE] coordination meetings, sit in it and said, you, what does that look like?

NATHAN MENKEN: Yeah exactly, calling it out. For sure.

AUDIENCE: [INAUDIBLE]

NATHAN MENKEN: And a big piece too, is trying to make sure your super can address his thing with look ahead as well. So everyone is on the same ballgame. Hey guys this is what we're seeing. Making sure everyone on the same page before you actually go and starting on that item.

But again it's that continuous process of trying to get everyone on that same page. So hopefully down the road, we're all-- the silo of BIM is broken and everyone's doing BIM, so therefore, you're on the same page and preventing things. Any other questions? Yep.

AUDIENCE: How long have you been running this program for the VR?

NATHAN MENKEN: For the VR side?

AUDIENCE: [INAUDIBLE]

NATHAN MENKEN: Yeah, probably about three years ago did a pilot project, just trying to figure it out. And then, Zane is actually, some of his friends actually work Fuser, so they started letting him see some of the new stuff, and so that kind of worked out well for us to understand what was going on. Yeah, exactly.

AUDIENCE: [INAUDIBLE]

NATHAN MENKEN: Yeah, exactly. Right. Yeah, for sure. So, you had another question?

AUDIENCE: Yeah, [INAUDIBLE]

NATHAN MENKEN: On the Bentley side, I'm trying to think. We haven't done too much on the Bentley side, which has been nice. Most of it's been on the core side, and by that point, a lot of those-- We've been getting out of the core work just based off of what's going on right now with everything. So for us it was, we haven't really had to throw it into Fuser, which has been nice. I can't really answer that one for you. Besides, we just haven't done a thing with Bentley. Cool. Anything else at all? Awesome. I appreciate you guys' time and have a good rest of your day. Yeah.