Beyond One Gender—The Power of Diversity and Inclusion

MALLARY WHITE: That was [INAUDIBLE].

LUC WING: All right. It's 3:00, guys. We'll go ahead and just start kicking it off. Doors should be closing here any second. Mute your phones and silence your notifications panel. So thank you guys all for joining us today. As you can tell, we have a very interesting class. We're talking about beyond one gender and the power of DEI. So we'll go ahead and jump right In my name is Luc Wing. I'm going to be the moderator for today. It's really important and crucial for me to be up here, as well.

I come from a very diverse background. I'm a father of three, and my three children are all biracial children. And so, these topics and issues are super important to me. And it's important that we, as a community, discuss these topics and issues and take them back to our workplace to make more inclusive workplaces and make it safer for everybody. So enough about me. We're going to go ahead and take a quick introduction to all the panelists. And I think we want to go ahead and we're going to start with Shir.

SHIR ERLICH: Yeah. Hi, everybody. Sorry, the mic. My name is Shir Erlich, and I am a product owner at Symetri. And I wanted to be part of this panel because, as I was growing in my career and becoming a leader, one thing was really blatantly obvious to me. And that is that I kept going to conference rooms and entering meetings and, now, Zoom calls, and I was the only woman in the room, most of the time.

And although this was difficult, there was always this little voice in my head, questioning-- what am I doing here? Do I belong here? And it really wasn't until I came to Microdesk and I saw some of the women that are in this panel today and how they led and what they were doing that I realized representation really matters. And they gave me the confidence to realize I really belong at the table. And I want other women, like some of you sitting here today, to feel that way, too.

LUC WING: We'll go ahead and we'll go in the order on the screen. So, Shivani, you want to go and take us next?

SHIVANI SONI: Yeah, sure. So I'm Shivani. I am the Global head of our Co-Innovation, part of Symetri. And part of the reason that I wanted to join this panel today was not only to sit with these amazing individuals that I'm sitting with today, but it was also-- I've gone through my journey. When I look at my cultural background, when I look at my being a female and the challenges I need to go through, it was almost like I want to be here in the hope that I'm able to inspire somebody to go, hey, you've actually got a place and you can actually talk as well, because we're only going to start moving the needle when we're comfortable to actually start talking together. So that's why I'm here.

LUC WING: Fantastic. Mallary, why don't you go ahead and introduce yourself?

MALLARY WHITE: Hi, I'm Mallary White. I'm the VP of consulting for the West Coast team at Microdesk I work with the architectural, structural, and interiors team. Sorry, I have a cold today. My background is in architecture, and I chose to join this panel from the beginning because Shear came to me and said, hey, we need to have more women on the stages at AU. And I said, you're right. We do.

And so, more than anything, I joined this panel because I felt like I feel firmly that representation matters. And then, you're going to see that's a common theme throughout our entire panel discussion. More importantly, I hope that you are taking away from our panel discussion and listening to our stories and our experiences and something resonates with you and your experiences. Or maybe it's your mother, your sister, your daughter, your colleague, your neighbor-- people with common backgrounds and cultures demonstrating that their perspectives and struggles are real and valid.

Most importantly, it's the bond that glues us together. And if you take away one thing from today, I hope that you take away that you are not alone. Whatever you're going through, whatever you're experiencing, you're not alone in your struggle. We're up here today, challenging the status quo, and we challenge you to do so, also.

LUC WING: Wonderful. And Tenille, would you like to go ahead and introduce yourself?

TENILLE BETTENHAUSEN: Sure. Can you hear me? [INAUDIBLE]. My name is Tenille Bettenhausen, and I'm the client success manager for Microdesk. I support the west and central United States. I, first, wanted to just say that I'm so proud to have the privilege to be on the stage with these individuals. Some of them. I get to work with weekly, if not daily. And so, they're some of the best of my Microdesk, and it's really awesome to be asked to be on this panel with them. My why is-- well, it's two parts. One, it's my daughters.

I have two little girls. They're watching me navigate my career. And so, it's all eyes on me-- how they're the future of this profession, maybe, or another profession. And so, it's really important for them to see me navigate this walk. And then, also, two, hopefully, that we walk out of here today asking ourselves, what can we do? No longer is it the onus of the HR manager or leadership. It's on each of us, individually. So I hope that we walk out of this room, asking ourselves, what can I do to make this better?

LUC WING: Wonderfully said. And last, but definitely not least, Mackenzie. Why don't you go ahead and introduce yourself?

MACKENZIE MCCULLOCH: Hi, I'm Mackenzie McCulloch. I'm a senior interior designer at Lamar Johnson Collaborative, which is an architecture firm owned by a large construction company. You're probably wondering, why is there a white guy on the stage? [LAUGHS] Really, I'm here today because I believe in all of these women up here and all the women in this room and all the women in those conference rooms who don't feel confident to speak. And I really want to help them be an advocate and use the privileges that do exist in my life to support them and get the most diverse groups of people speaking in the room.

LUC WING: Fantastic. So you guys have probably heard this DEI, DEI, DEI. And you're thinking, well, what is DEI, right? DEI stands for Diversity, Inclusion, and Equity. And so, we'll go ahead and just get into a little bit of what DEI stands for. It's been shown that working environments that excel in diversity and inclusion drive better business outcomes for their organizations. And so, while many organizations have made an attempt to increase their DEI status, progress has still been slow. So many organizations are now taking these extra steps required to create safe and inclusive spaces.

So let's discuss what this really means. As you know, DEI stands for Diversity, Equity and Inclusion, and it's the umbrella term for the programs and policies, strategies and practices that implement a company's mission to create and sustain a diverse, equitable and inclusive environment that respects and accommodates every employee's ethnicity, sexual orientation, gender ID, physical ability, religion, age, marital status, socioeconomic status, national origin, and even their veteran status. So achieving DEI is not only critical for the success of diversity, the initiatives that we're looking to incorporate. They actually create equitable workplaces that foster safe spaces.

So, with technology-enabled solutions and data, we have deepened our understanding of people and the markets, and we've increased enterprise efficiency. And we've also altered the entire industry as a whole and turning it upside down. And now, we have the potential similarity to transform DEI and those outcomes. And so, since we are all immersed with technology every single day, it's important that we're enabling this technology for the good.

As you guys are all aware, technology intended for good can always be used for evil. Look at social media. We need to really make sure we're leveraging this to make a positive impact and not contribute to that. So, right away, I can think of tons of solutions. I could talk all afternoon. But, thankfully for you all, you don't have to listen to me ramble on. We're going to go ahead and get right into the panel. So, panelists, I'm going to go ahead and just ask you guys.

I'm going to challenge you. I want you to open up today. I want you to share. This is a safe space, and I want you to really share your personal experiences and stories. And, hopefully, someone out here can connect. Like you said, they're not alone, and they can take your stories and grow from them, as well. So, with that, we're going to go ahead and dive into today's discussion.

So my first question is for Mallary. And it's well known in our industry there's been a lack of diversity. And it's only recently, I think, we're starting to see this shift happen and people are starting to care about it a little bit more. And we can't help but think it's about time. But, Mallary, I want you to give your experience on how you feel on this industry's rapid growth and if the shift in technology has actually had a positive or negative impact for the minorities in our industry? And are these two things connected?

MALLARY WHITE: That's a really big question there. So I do think they're connected. I think that two of the things that we can take away from what we've leveraged in the last couple of years is that we have flexibility now. And I don't mean just working when you want to work. I mean that we have flexibility, and we should be more flexible in a sense that we should be open to all people's opinions and cultures. And diversity really is important. I think that, also, technology has leveraged us.

We've been able to leverage technology in a way that levels the playing field. And, really, technology-- when you think about it, it's systematic. It's pragmatic. It's something that is or isn't. It's based in science. It's not subjective. It's objective. And so, that levels the playing field. And we're all sitting at home during this pandemic. We're not looking at people and judging the way they're talking or the way that they look or anything like that. We're looking at the work, and we're judging the work as it is. So it's leveled that playing field, in that respect.

And I would like to add that we're all in this stage because of technology, because none of us live near each other. Mackenzie is in Saint Louis. I'm in LA. Shir is in--

SHIR ERLICH: Virginia.

MALLARY WHITE: --DC. We didn't meet until we came here, about yesterday. So we've been working and talking about this subject for a very long time online and with technology.

LUC WING: All those are fantastic points, Mallary. Thank you. And I think it's important to remember that there is humans behind that technology, as well. Now, we'll get into that a little bit more. So, Shivani, since your recent elevation to the global lead for the Co-Innovation Lab-- sorry. That was a little shameless plug. She just got promoted. So, with that, being a female and a minority, how has this technology impacted your journey to become a global lead of such a big company?

SHIVANI SONI: Yeah, absolutely. But before I answer that question, I just want to say, Mallary, what a great point, leveling out. Technology, it doesn't discriminate. It's down to us to push the boundaries through the actual what-- and through those boundaries that we're within. It's making sure that we're able to actually communicate better rather than actually saying that person that is actually doing the work or anything.

But, for me, it's like you look at technology and you're saying, actually, it's opened up so much pathways for so many people from diverse backgrounds. And it's actually a digital, thriving economy that we're in right now. It's actually allowing us to push boundaries. It's allowing us to communicate in a different way.

Probably, all of us on this stage today, we were probably part of the technology booming age. And I remember, when I started, I was that type of girl that-- I do not care for technology. I was so happy with my pen and paper, creativity. Let me go outside. Let me play. All that sort of stuff. But we were part of that booming age. I was not going to be able to escape it. It was going to come into my school. It was going to come into my university. And it was definitely going to come into my work.

And I started to embrace it. And I remember, when I first finished university, I came out and I was like, oh my gosh, I need to learn AutoCAD. AutoCAD, AutoCAD, AutoCAD. And I did not get it. I came by I came from a Vectorworks background. And that's not to say AutoCAD is bad. I do respect it. I think it's a great tool. Please do leverage it.

LUC WING: Nice save.

SHIR ERLICH: We all have to know AutoCAD.

SHIVANI SONI: My mentor back then, who I still consider as a mentor, he basically started to look at how I was looking at things. And he started to see how I was starting to analyze things. And he told me, very casually, go check out Revit. So I started checking out Revit, and I started to embrace it even further. And I saw how it was allowing me to actually communicate better. And, at that point, it made me realize-- actually, my dyslexia was actually a strength to me because it was allowing me to showcase how to communicate in a different way.

And dyslexia is more than spellings. It's about strong imagination. It's about three-dimensional qualities. And that has-- I actually think when you put all that combination together, it's allowed me to think out the box, and it's allowed me to be in the position that I am today to push innovation, push creativity, and push positivity, as well.

LUC WING: That's fantastic. If any of the panelists want to add to that, I just want to give you a minute, if you had something to say. Mallary, it looks like you got something.

MALLARY WHITE: Yes.

LUC WING: Of course.

[LAUGHTER]

MALLARY WHITE: Shivani, I really think that something resonated with me in what you said. With your dyslexia, do you think that that has challenged you to go in atypical directions with technology and in your life, in general?

LUC WING: Good question.

SHIVANI SONI: I never realized I was dyslexic until much later on in my education. But I don't think it restricted me. But I saw how people were reacting to me, just because I would look at something different, just because I would say something in a different way. I call that-- that's shift. You get to know me. That's my language. We're going to find a way to communicate, but don't pigeonhole me. I want you guys to just open up and communicate with me in a different way. And that's what my dyslexia allowed me, and I think that's what, also, technology has actually allowed me to communicate with others, as well.

MALLARY WHITE: So it's given you the slack you need to really bring yourself to work.

SHIVANI SONI: Yeah, exactly. Because we're not all pigeonholed to work in the same way. And that's what we need to acknowledge.

LUC WING: We're all different, right? We have a technology company. I'm here with cue cards. We have iPads and different way of working. But, Shivani, I think what the crowd really can take away from that-- let me know if I'm not summarizing it correctly.

But you take something that's considered a disability or a handicap, if you will-- not saying that it is, but you use it as your superpower. And I can really attest for that because I work with you every day. And she's an amazing person to work with. One of the most organized people I've ever met with dyslexia. And she can spell really well, just so you guys know. So it has nothing to do with that.

But for time's sake, we're going go ahead and just move on. So our next one, we're going to talk a little bit about the gender gap. And I feel this really leads into that kind of question. And so, Shir, this one's for you. So just FYI. I think that tech really can have an impact on our industry. But it still seems, even to this day, this new way of working where one can be valued for their work and not their gender-- but, however, our industry, obviously, is still lacking from the largest gender gap, where only 16.5% are female.

And it looks like we have a really diverse group today, so that don't work. But, Shir, I will ask you what you think about the AEC industry and why we're lagging behind the other STEM fields when it comes to diversity, equity or inclusion. And what are we going to do about it?

SHIR ERLICH: So you bring up a really good point. And I think, when I really noticed this-- and what I think for most people is-- it starts in school or university, college, whatever you want to call it. And I can say I actually studied architecture, like a few others here.

And while I was attending school at Pratt, I loved to learn. I love to study, even to this day. Which is why I probably transitioned to a different industry, because I continuously want to learn. But by the end of school, I realized I don't want to become an architect. And it could be that I had, really, few female professors who could mentor me. Or maybe it was the long hours and toxic culture that burned me out.

But I think the main thing was the really large male egos that I had to battle on a daily basis and being constantly critiqued by male professors about my work that, ultimately, turned me away from wanting to become an architect. Because, at the time, I thought, well, if this is how it is in school, what is it going to be like in the real world?

AUDIENCE: Worse.

LUC WING: Yes. Yes.

SHIR ERLICH: Worse. It is. And there's so many stereotypes-- and it's not a stereotype if it's true-- for women in architecture and in our industry, long, inflexible hours, unprogressive office culture, lack of advancements, few mentorship opportunities, and constantly being shut down and talked over. And I think that a lot of this stems from the history of our field being male dominated. And that does not help women advance in leadership positions.

Men still, often, don't want to be told what to do by women. And we're still thought of to stop working once we get married or have kids. Or a lot of our clients question our competence as a woman, being, I know, as an architect.

And even this has happened to me many times. Not just from my clients, but also, from my peers. I worked as a BIM manager at a large architecture firm. And one of our senior architects who I was trying to help, who I was giving advice to, would just blatantly ignore me and, instead, go talk to my intern just because he was a male.

LUC WING: That's pitiful. And I'm sorry you had to deal with that, but we are definitely glad you're with us. So it worked out for the best.

SHIR ERLICH: That was before Microdesk.

[LAUGHTER]

LUC WING: And I want to go ahead and pivot this one, too. And, Mackenzie, this is for you. And I want you to give your perspective because, in case you guys didn't catch, Mackenzie is a male working in what's typically considered a female-led industry. And so, I wonder, Mackenzie. How do you deal with this, personally, and how are you an ally and support people with this?

MACKENZIE MCCULLOCH: I want to touch on something that Shir said, just for a second, because I think the school, the education process has been something that is super challenging for everyone. Mallary and I actually were in college together at the same time. And it was very common for there to be sleeping bags there. And for you to be expected to be there in studio the entire time and obsessing your entire life around this, which starts to exclude people who have to have a job to be in college because they can't spend that amount of time, who might need to care for a family member.

All of these things that start to translate into the work world, where we are creating this, again, toxic culture of, you have to do this to be a great architect or a great designer or a great engineer. It's just not true. And so, it's that that, I think, starts to lead into all of those worlds. So I graduated with an architecture degree. About three years into my career, I switched to interiors. One, because it was mostly women, and I would rather work with women. But also, because I feel like interiors touched more of the things that we experience every day.

We're thinking about spaces empathetically. We're not building this monolith to say this is a giant architectural building. That's so cool. Look at it. We're saying, oh, this lighting is really nice in here, or this protects the way that I feel in accordance with sound. Or there's spaces that I can choose to make my day-to-day life better.

So I think it's a blend of a few of those things is why I switch. But it also opened my eyes to how architects treat interiors people and, predominantly, women. And so, that's why I felt the need to participate in this advocacy-type role-- because I wanted them to be successful and to be heard and to have the most diverse voices in the room.

LUC WING: Absolutely. And I think it's apparent when you look at organizations today. Some of the most successful organizations or countries are ran by women. Thank god for Shivani because she's organized my life. So it's fantastic. But I think I just want to touch-- it says something when a very well-known, successful businessman that are typically known as a real gritty dude, straightforward-- and I'm sure you guys all know "Mr. Wonderful" or Kevin O'Leary from Shark Tank. Well, I just want to read you this quote.

And he says, it's not because I'm sexist- so it already starts off wrong. But it's not because I'm sexist, but it's because I'm getting better business returns. Men were setting targets that were not achievable, and I can attest for that. And maybe it's aggressive in our nature and how we work, but women don't waste time. And it's fantastic. And we also have women running countries. The prime minister of New Zealand, she's running an entire country while breastfeeding. That's amazing. And you think that that doesn't translate, or it's tougher than ladies in architecture world?

So it's pretty fantastic to see how resilient women are. And we should definitely give them some more respect when it comes to that. But I believe we're going to start noticing, these organizations that are pushing females into leadership roles are going to be more successful, and it will be more of the standard model, I hope, that we start adopting. Which leads us in to the next topic. Good segue.

We're talking about inclusion now. So it does touch on our first discussion point. But it's very important, I think, when we're talking about inclusion. It's one thing to say, oh, I believe in inclusion, and you're included. And it's another thing to actually include someone. I can tell Mackenzie, oh, yeah. You're included. Thanks for your opinion. Have a great day. But that's not including him.

So we'll go ahead and get in our first question for this. And, Tenille, this one's for you. Being an African-American woman, especially in today's climate, have you ever had to ask yourself, do you feel like you really belong here? And, if so, I really want to know, how does that impact you as not only a professional, but as a human, having to deal with that?

TENILLE BETTENHAUSEN: Yeah, I've asked myself that along my journey multiple, multiple times. I've been in the AEC industry for 20 years. Believe it or not, it's been 20 years.

LUC WING: It doesn't look like it.

TENILLE BETTENHAUSEN: Thank you And I have a degree in architecture. And there's been a few career pivots that I've made where I've asked myself, do I belong? And one of the ones that stands out the most to me was-- I took five years off to be at home with my daughters.

We lived in southern California, and it's really expensive to provide child care. So it was literally one of my whole paychecks. And so, I was working just to pay for my childcare. And that didn't make any sense, so we decided I was going to stay home.

And five to six years isn't really a long time. At least, I didn't think so. And when my daughter, my youngest one, was ready to go to kindergarten, I started to float my resume to firms to go back in, to be a designer and a project manager, which is where I left. And I was told that I was too rusty and that the technology had surpassed my ability, which is super ironic because, now, I work for a technology company.

LUC WING: Thankfully.

MALLARY WHITE: And you are using Revit now.

TENILLE BETTENHAUSEN: I do. I did use Revit before. I just thought that was so strange. And I do know that, with the right leadership and mentorship, I probably could have worked through that. Like she said, I use it now. And so, I just think that I asked myself, at that point, do I belong? But I think I do. And I belong at the table. My voice belongs here. And if the industry is not ready for that, that's too damn bad.

LUC WING: That is too damn bad. I'd say, way to go. Everyone get the little snap for that one. No, I completely hear what you're saying, Tenille. And it's wonderful that you've got back into it. And I think we need to be more supportive of that and be more flexible. Just recently, had my third child. And, thankfully, I work for a great company who had allowed me to take the six, eight, however many weeks I needed to support my wife because it was extremely hard for her, waking up all night and doing that stuff and having to work till-- so she didn't get the leave that I got.

So it was pretty nice to have that. So thank you, guys.

MALLARY WHITE: I will add one thing to that. One of my experiences is that, when I had my child, I was at the parenting class that you go to-- Baby and Me, or whatever it is. And when I was at the class, I said, OK. So how do I do breastfeeding? How do I pump? How do I pump and go to work? And the lady looked at me and said, are you going back to work? And I said, are you kidding me? Yeah, I have to. I live in California. I have to go back to work. Are you kidding me?

And so, it really hit me, as a working mom and looking-- and people are still of that mindset that's where it's crazy to me.

LUC WING: Yeah And it's getting better. My last firm, we had a lactation room for the new mothers. It was refreshing. They could work and still give their baby the proper nutrients. So that's fantastic. Just for sake of time, though, I'm going to go ahead and shove this over to you, Shivani, now. I want to ask you this. You're from a very rich, cultural background. And I know it's very diverse, as well. I know your family's been from all over the globe, almost.

And on the global scale-- and now, with your new position, I'm sure, like Shir said, you run into tons and tons of male egos that may not be so willing to hear what you have to say. So do you ever feel yourself asking that same question. Do I really belong here? Do I have a seat at this table?

SHIVANI SONI: Yeah, absolutely. Culture is made up of so many different elements. It creates your personality. In the work world, it's that, to be competent is looking at your ability to perform at something. But to be culturally competent is your ability to understand that individual, to understand their background, to understand why are they going about on certain things because for that is bringing in empathy, is bringing in to understand, oh, that's the way that they're talking about x, y, z. So there's nothing wrong with that.

But, actually, if we take that time to actually listen to somebody else, and just to understand why they're thinking about that, it actually enhances our ability, as human beings, to connect and communicate better. I know, from my personal background, my cultural identity has played a part. In a positive side, there was-- once, when I was a junior and I was working behind my desk. And a client comes in and speaks to my boss. And they go, oh, there's an Indian there. Oh, she's clever, isn't it? So I took that as a positive.

But there's nothing wrong to say my other colleagues were not clever, as well. Just because of my skin color, it doesn't mean my fellow colleagues are not clever, as well. But what I do think is it makes our identity-- if we just take that chance, that moment, just to sit down, just to listen to each other, I think we can actually be a lot more diverse, bring different perspectives to the table. And we can, actually, really make a, really, thriving work culture, as well.

I know, for myself, if you ask the question, do I belong, I will turn around and say, yes, I do belong. Do I think the industry is ready? I think we can get there, but we still got a fight on our hands. So do I belong? Yes. Are we there yet? We're working towards it.

LUC WING: Yeah, we are. We're getting there. But I think you touched on a fantastic point, and that's something that I really want to highlight for you guys. And it's a great segue, too. So thank you. But it's empathy. You have to practice empathy and understanding. Put yourself in their shoes so you can understand-- if I'm coming on the computer, 8:00 in the morning, with a bad attitude-- Shivani, she takes-- hey, how is your morning going and everything? Did your baby sleep well last night? And the answer is no, all the time. But--

MALLARY WHITE: Every time.

LUC WING: --it makes me smile that she cares to ask about my life. It's fantastic. We're not just straight to business. So thank you, again, for that. That's wonderful. Did any of the panelists have anything to add to the empathy aspect before I move on to the empathy slide?

MALLARY WHITE: I was going to say, just be flexible. Just tying that back to the beginning points of being flexible with your technology and stuff. Just being tolerant and understanding other people's opinions and where they're coming from and being empathetic. It's going to be a big push, I think, in the future. Awesome. I absolutely agree. Which leads to our next topic. So, Shir, we keep hearing this word, empathy, over and over again. SO I wonder, how does empathy play a role when you're supporting others-- like how Mackenzie is a champion for change.

How does empathy play a role when you're doing that in the office, and why do you feel it's so important that you show empathy?

SHIR ERLICH: Yeah. We are constantly put in-- and I think, specifically, in America-- this competition stance. It's part of the American corporate culture to be competitive. Why is that? Why do we need to be fighting against each other when we really should be supporting each other? And we really need to shift that mindset and the way we work and not climb on top of each other, but lift each other up. And it's, sometimes, hard to do that. And we need to think about the problems that each other are having.

And we need to stop being afraid to speak up to support each other. And, sometimes, we really need to scream and we need to shout and we need to be loud to be heard. When we're in the meeting-- I mentioned this in the beginning-- being the only female in the room or the only minority, the only person that looks like you. And, a lot of times, what comes with that is people are going to be talking over you, taking credit for what you said, mansplaining-- I know we've all been there.

LUC WING: Guilty

SHIR ERLICH: Not giving each other a chance to speak or undervaluing what you bring to the table. And it needs to be more than just you that's sitting in that room and speaking up and shouting, this isn't right. And those in the majority, whether that is about your skin color or your gender, needs to help those in the minority. We need to think about what each other are facing, whether that be child care, whether that be other family transitions in your life-- things like long commute times that a lot of us, maybe, not so much have, but used to have. Things like workplace harassment, which is hard to talk about, nursing mothers, like we talked about, just to name a few.

How are we supporting each of those individuals? Sometimes, we need to take a step back and put ourselves in each other's shoes to try to understand how they're feeling and what they need and how we can support them. And let's remember that we want to remind each other that we're not alone, that we're not the only one in the room. But there's a lot of us out there, and we need to support one another in that process.

LUC WING: That's absolutely it. We all need that ally, and we need a support system. And that comes back to something you mentioned on earlier, Mackenzie. And I want to get your perspective on this because, like you said, you work in a female-dominated industry. And you are, maybe, the minority. But how are you still that ally and the voice to the people you work with?

MACKENZIE MCCULLOCH: I'm a male, and I work in a group of people within a larger design community that is male-dominated. But I'm around women all day long, and we are the people who need to speak on behalf of those types of projects. I think that something that Shir said-- she said it yesterday, and I hadn't really heard it until yesterday-- about competition.

And I set off on my career. I'm a competitive person. I want to win. I want to be the best. And I always thought that was something that I had to drive myself. And, I think, when I realized that all five of us can win and we can win together and be supported, it made me really think about the way that I presented ideas or talked in a room. It's very important.

I am word vomit. If you can't tell, by the way, I'm speaking today. And so, my first reaction is to speak. But my first reaction should be wait and see if someone who is not comfortable speaking or feels like they can't be heard wants to speak first, and thinking about opportunities like that.

I've been in so many situations where we're presenting a project to the rest of the architecture team and my teammate, who is usually a female, will send me a Teams message and be like, say this idea or come up with this. And I'm like, you say it. You should be able to say it. But we have to make those spaces comfortable for those people to feel like they can say that. If they're in a room of all white men and they're the only female in the room or the only person of color in the room, they're not going to share their idea without some sort of support or knowing that you have their back in that situation.

MALLARY WHITE: I'm guilty of that. Definitely.

LUC WING: Absolutely.

SHIVANI SONI: Can I just interject there? I just want to say that I so resonate with what both of you guys are saying. My vocal chords are so tired to shout every time, to listen to my voice. But I just want to say that, Mackenzie, what you just spoke there, in supporting each other, I respect that. I respect that of you, and I feel like we need more of that support network where you adjust my crown and I adjust your crown.

LUC WING: That's a good one.

SHIVANI SONI: We need more people like you to allow others to speak or bring them forward, as well.

LUC WING: Yeah. That's wonderful. No, I completely agree, and it's fantastic. Thank you, guys, for sharing that. I do think that something that we need to work on is being the ally and being supportive.

We just had this whole thing last year, but when you're complacent or you're quiet and you see something going wrong, you are just as guilty as the person committing the crime. So if you see someone disrespecting your colleague, be a person. Stand up and go stand up for them. And those are true leadership qualities. And I think that's why Mackenzie is doing fantastic in his career because he's not worried about where Mackenzie goes. He's worried about where his team goes. And leadership notices that. It's not I, I, I. It's we, we, we.

SHIR ERLICH: When your team succeeds, you succeed.

LUC WING: How many corny ones can we come up with teamwork? Teamwork makes the dream work.

SHIR ERLICH: Teamwork makes the dream work.

MACKENZIE MCCULLOCH: I'm sticking with the crowns. I just want--

SHIR ERLICH: I like the crowns.

MACKENZIE MCCULLOCH: --to keep going with the crowns.

LUC WING: I like the crowns, yes.

SHIR ERLICH: I like that.

LUC WING: But that brings it up, in that we're going to talk a little bit about diversity, which is the focus of our next topic. And I'm going to bring up a topic you brought up earlier. When you're going to school or when I'm lecturing at my local university I look out and I see a beautifully rich, diverse class-- people from all over the globe speaking different languages, different ideas, different strategies that they approach the problems with. But, like you said, it does not translate to the workforce.

When I get to the workforce, my office was all white males. And I was the minority. So it's difficult to translate into that. And so, I want to go ahead and ask Mallary because I think you do a fantastic job, at Microdesk, promoting diversity and your hiring practice supports our message and our goals. And so, I want to ask you, how do you think us, as a company, how we address-- maybe not us, as a company, but how should organizations address diversity?

MALLARY WHITE: Well, first of all, we can all do better. And if you haven't noticed yet, we're all going to have love letters to Microdesk because we love working there. But I'm a bit partial. I love working at Microdesk. I've been there for about eight years. And I'm a millennial. I should have hopped, at least, four times by now, to different companies. And I haven't left because I've found it challenging, diverse-- not only in the collaborative teams that I'm working with, but also, the projects. I'm excited to work. I'm excited to come to work every day.

And eight years is a long time, when you think about it, from my perspective. I will say, when I'm hiring or I'm interviewing there, I'm not looking at-- maybe I'm an extremist. I'm from Mississippi. I moved to New York, and then, I moved to LA. I'm not your typical southern white lady. No

LUC WING: Offense.

MALLARY WHITE: Yeah. No offense. I want to pull from all different cultures, and diversity is, really, a big deal to me. I have a little boy at home. I pick and choose, from different cultures, what I'm going to expose him to. And not just your typical what you're-- go to church every Sunday and do what you're supposed to do. I love to pull things from different cultures, like-- I love the Mexican culture. I'm going to I'm going to butcher this, but I love the ofrenda.

LUC WING: It's OK.

MALLARY WHITE: Whether you believe it or not, you have that in your house, probably, with where you keep all your pictures. And it's amazing. And I think that that's a really good thing to think about when you're thinking about how to incorporate diversity into your everyday life, so that you are exposed to different things. With that said, I will say, in our hiring practices, I personally look at the skill set, the personality. Are you collaborative? Do you have a giant ego? Because more than likely, I don't want to work with you if you have a giant ego.

And those are the criteria that I look at. Do you know your stuff? Do you know Revit? Do you know Navisworks? Whatever it is we're looking for, and I make sure to look at that before I look at anything else. I will say that there's some quick fixes, and we can all do better. But we need to think about making little changes, like exposure to different cultures and things, maybe, in your hiring pool that you're pulling from.

LUC WING: And not just checking the boxes, but being diligent about that. I think that's wonderfully said. And so, I think that brings us to the next question is, how are we going to flip this script? And so, I'm going to follow up with you on this and say-- well, OK. How can we become gender equality champions, then?

MALLARY WHITE: I think that there's several approaches you can take. Number one, support, supportive initiatives, mentorships. My mentee is sitting right here. I have other mentors of myself that-- they don't even know I exist. I'm watching them online. One of them is Reshma Saujani, and she's the woman who came up with Girls Who Code. The other one is-- and she probably has no idea I exist-- Tracy Young. She is the owner and co-founder of PlanGrid. They are both so charismatic and can speak on their subject matter so eloquently.

I follow everything that they do, and that's where I mimic and mirror that mentorship. It's a one-way mentorship, obviously. But the other thing is being more collaborative. Listen to everybody's opinion in the room before we make a huge decision. Two heads are better than one, always. The other thing is representation matters. Being exposed and having exposure to different cultures and different ideas-- just listen. Be empathetic. You're going to hear that message all day long in here. And the other thing, the bigger thing is-- and this is for women and minorities, in particular-- socialization and conditioning.