How Multi-User Collaborative Virtual Reality Is Changing the Way Architects Design Spaces

ERNESTO PACHECO: Cool. How many of you know NVIDIA Holodeck? All right. This small animation was put together with NVIDIA Holodeck. It was a product of love between the St. Louis office-- CannonDesign St. Louis office and the NVIDIA office in St. Louis, and we will talk about this a little bit more down the road.

Yeah, welcome to the hangover, right?

[LAUGHTER]

I apologize for my voice today. I blame my co-workers over here. They asked me to hang out so late, so I apologize if I'm sipping a little bit of tea with honey, you know, trying to stay warm. But yeah, I'm glad that you are here. It's the last day of AU. It's been a marathon. My name is Ernesto Pacheco. I'm the director of visualization at CannonDesign. You can follow me on Twitter. You can follow the firm on Twitter. And that's my email, in case you have any questions that don't get answered.

A little bit about CannonDesign. We are an office-- we're a firm with over 24 offices around the world. Around 1,000 employees and we have over 100 years of history. We have-- these are some of the awards that we have achieved, and we were just named number four, overall, by Architect magazine and number 12 on design. And part of the reason for that award was our pursuant technology, including the project, Holodeck.

The market focus-- as you know, we do health, education, corporate, science and technology, civic. Services-- we do architecture, engineering, interior design, master planning, you name it. So why VR? VR tends to be a very isolated experience. We have been playing with this technology since a couple of years ago-- probably two years ago. We tend to, as visual-- as an architectural company, visualization is very important for design process, right? As architects, we are able to understand 2D images, but we have to translate these so clients can understand our ideas.

So we go from sketches like this one into concept design renderings, interior design renderings, and fully rendered exterior renderings. From there, we have explored immersive technologies like 360 panoramas. This is an example of what we have done in the past. We use Modelo for now to deploy these two clients. And here's an example of early experimentation with VR. This was put together in Unreal Engine, and we learned a lot from this project. It took a couple of months just to get the whole campus in. We had files from Revit, Rhino, SketchUp-- so it was a very tedious job to do. But we definitely gained a lot of experience by experimenting with Unreal Engine.

Also, this is the first time we attempted to include a game inside VR. So you can see those blocks floating. When the user steps underneath the blocks, you can hear a voiceover, and it talks about that part of the campus. So this was deployed to the client just almost as a gift because we were eager to explore this new technology.

Now this is another example. This is probably like two years old. It's a very-- the first time that we played with interactivity inside VR, we decided to do a mock-up-- a patient room. Also Unreal Engine, and we toyed with the idea of making it interactive. So you could turn on and off lights, move objects, move the position of the lights, actually, too, and play video. This was one of the earliest experimentations that we have done at Cannon.

So this is some of the software that we use now. Revit, Enscape, Modo, Unreal Engine, 3ds Max, Holodeck. We use Sketchfab to deploy fast AR right now. We use plug-ins for 3ds Max and Modo for this. We also use Modelo for interactive models and presentations when we go for client pursuits. And we have even experimented with Leap Motion to bring in another step of interactivity for VR. Instead of using the controllers, you use your hands to manipulate objects. And we have also explored ARKit and ARCore in their offices.

So at Cannon, we like to share our ideas with clients, and it has been enhanced by our need to explore new technologies. From primarily conceptual design to our final products, we have leveraged these technologies to communicate with our clients and try to gain more projects.

So this is an example of the Leap Motion. This was one of the first times we tried it. It's very interactive. I'm sure-- can I see hands? How many of you know about Leap Motion? All right. And this is an example of Sketchfab using AR. This was created for Pursue, as well, and it was one of the first times that we tried these with a client.

And we also have a group of computational designers that are pushing boundaries right now. We're trying to take advantage of AI and some of their programming knowledge that they have to go through iterations of options faster. And this is obviously helping us save money and give our clients what they need.

So all of this is good, but we need to find a way to push this technology down the pipe. We cannot just outsource this. We rely for our designers to pick up a model and be able to export to a real time engine and setup experiences. So the question is, how is your workflow? Workflow is very important for CannonDesign. We have been playing with different techniques, different steps-- you name it. We have tried all the plug-ins there are for Revit to get Revit models into 3ds Max the most efficient way because when you plan for RT, or real time, you have to take into consideration your polygon count and materials and so forth.

So this is how our workflow looks like right now. We go from Revit to 3ds Max. In the case of Holodeck, you have to use the Iray plug-in. And depending on how much interactivity and how much, I guess, the quality of the real time experience that you're looking for, you might have to do UV mapping. And that's where you use Photoshop and Illustrator to process all the textures.

And I'm going to go over some slides just kind of showing how that process looks. This is a basketball arena. This is in Revit. So we were asked by the client to put together a set of renderings-- 360 videos, animation, and VR. And it was all for a fundraising event. So it was important for us to try to be efficient. We didn't want to waste too much time. The model was very, very heavy. It had around 3,000 seats or something. So a lot of optimization needed to be done.

So in this case, we decided to export from Revit as a DWG and go through Rhino just to get the cleanest match we could get. And then after that, we used a small tool called AccuTrans. And this is another step on translation of files. And then when you have that-- in this case, I used Modo. Back in the day, UV mapping was faster. I know 3ds Max is coming out with some really amazing tools for the next release. But in this case, as you can see, having a clean surface-- it makes UV mapping easier. And then you will export from the 3D program as an EPS and bring it into either Photoshop or Illustrator, and use some of the environmental graphics that the client provided for us. And this is how it looks in Unreal Engine. After a little bit of light built and some lights thrown into there.

So when we were talking about the process for this event, we decided we were looking for a way to, I guess, break the ice with the client. And we toyed with the idea of creating a game within the virtual space. So we were like, hey, how about shooting hoops? And we were like, yeah, let's do it. So we have-- we are not game designers, but we definitely have the hunger, I guess, to explore. So we decided to give it a go. This is how the basketball looks in Unreal, and this is a little bit of the blueprint that we did for navigation, and also the basketball.

Here's a video of the event-- the fundraising event. We invited an athlete to jump in VR-- one of their stars to shoot hoops. And this was well-received by the audience. They really loved it, and it definitely helped them welcome in VR. It was a lot of fun. We did a lot of practice. Like he took like 1,000 shots until he got the feel for it, because it's not like the Wii. You don't have-- we didn't go all the way to creating the arc or anything. It was just physics. It was a very interesting process. And this is how the project looks. This is the finished model in Unreal.

Now let's talk a little bit about what we get from Revit. Most of the time, if you bring something into 3ds Max straight from Revit, this is what you get. There is no order, depending on who's modeling, right? We do our best to train people and we hope that they have pursued training, as well. But as visualization artists, we have to deal with situations like this. Things are attached that don't belong to each other. There are a lot of artifacts, broken polygons, and so forth. So we have to spend two, three days cleaning this mesh, to the point that it looks like this.

So you have something that is more optimized. It has more polygons, so it's kind of going against the rules, but at least it makes more sense and it will make UV mapping a lot better than if you had a broken mesh. And then from there, you go to the next step, which is further optimization. You do a little bit of remodeling and re-topology, to the point that you have a paper-- paper walls, basically. You get rid of anything that is non-seen by the real time engine. And this will be like the perfect model to bring into Unreal or any of the other packages for real time renderings.

So we have been in conversations with Autodesk for a year now on the workflow. They were very curious to find out how is it we worked. And they offered to actually help us create a small tool. And this is for 3ds Max. We named it RVT2RT-- Revit to real time. And this is an example of how it looks-- the first version that I got, actually. It leverages the beam data from the Revit file. This is the Revit file coming in with all these objects. It's not really optimized, and I couldn't think of sending it like that into Holodeck, for instance.

So what this tool does-- it leverages the beam data. You can select-- you can actually type in a name. You can say, wall, and it will select all the walls for you and it will do the attachment for you. You can also just say, hey, attach everything for material or by a type or category. So you have some options. This was the first iteration that they sent to me, and I was happy. I was cutting a lot of the steps that I needed to do, before then, manually.

This is how it looks now. Now you can see that you can remove objects. You can replace furniture. You can clean up materials, replace materials. You can even create LODs now and have an option to export FBX, if you want to do that. And here is a little bit of how we go about thinking about these tools, right? We set material library path, and then just replace the file with something that you have already in your network.

So now from there, I'm going to talk a little bit about Holodeck. A year ago, we had the opportunity to use Early Access 1. Again, we realize that VR is a very lonely experience, so we were looking for the next thing-- the multi-user aspect of VR, and we were really happy to just give it a go. We had been trying to do it on our own, and we were happy that NVIDIA thought of it.

At CannonDesign, we have a lot of meetings, such as this one, where we fly in consultants-- other designers from other offices. We use maps, renderings, scale models to help the brainstorming, right? So this is very important-- the human aspect of having these types of pin-ups and conversations. But what if you could do this in VR? So this is Holodeck. We have a designer from the Houston office, one from Chicago, and one in St. Louis-- all of them working on the same model, manipulating, and talking to each other. That was really good for us to kind of try, and also, it's fun. Holodeck thought about this. They created really cool avatars. You can actually customize them. They have emotions, and thanks to the HTC Vive, you can actually read body language. So if somebody is frustrated, you can see them feeling frustrated-- sad or whatever. And you can also do some signs with, OK, thumbs up. It's a very fun package.

So we go from the traditional aspect of using physical models to explain our idea-- so plan patient rooms-- to doing it virtually. And you can do it-- you don't have to be in the US. You can be in another part of the planet and log into these sessions. Here are some of the requirements-- minimum requirements for Holodeck. You need to use 3ds Max, the Iray plug-in. You can also use my Maya if you're a Maya user. You need to use the MDL materials that NVIDIA provides, and they have a really robust library for this. And some aspects for computer power-- it works with the HTC Vive and the Oculus Rift. And you need-- what is important is that you need separated Steam accounts to log in from far away.

But some best practices. Materials can only be applied per object. The recommended polygon count limit is 50 million triangles. You can also do 3,000 objects-- recommended maximum that you need-- materials are 64. So that's a very-- that's one of the things that is limiting Holodeck right now. You can only use 64 unique materials, so you have to really think about your experience. You have to optimize your model to a point that you can actually do it with 64 materials. Sometimes, that's really hard because we have [INAUDIBLE] which is huge, right?

So when we had access to Holodeck, we used our office. I don't know if any of you have seen these videos showing this particular project. This is the St. Louis office. We used the Revit file, and then we translated that into 3ds Max. You can see the non-optimized on the right and the optimized on the left. That's how many objects-- we went from 13,000 to 88 entities.

And this is how the materials look in Iray, and also some of the UV mapping that went on. So here is an example of our first experience with Holodeck. That's me, and the other guy is actually logging in from Chicago. We were super impressed with all the tools that came with Early Access 1, even though these tools were really for the automotive industry. They didn't really translate for architecture completely, but they were robust enough that you can actually use it for client purposes. It was very impressive to see section boxes in real time. We could talk to each other and say, hey, look at this. And you could explore the model. You could actually pick up pieces apart from the model, and this is-- so you know-- this is all because if you were smart enough to separate the objects in 3ds Max before you sent it to Holodeck.

So you can see there is a lot of possibilities with Holodeck. This was one of the first times, also, that we sketch in 3D in the VR environment, and it was super fun. Also, one thing to note is we don't have legs, right? So it was really weird to see somebody just floating with their torso around, moving-- talking to you. So I'm happy to say that Holodeck noticed that, and now, they are actually using AI to drive the legs because you don't have sensors on your legs. So they pre-created animation for the legs and let AI take on, you know, what are you doing. If you're bending, the legs will bend.

And you can also change the light. You have-- in this case, we had only three options for light-- daylight, you know, the sunset, and then night. Holodeck is-- the next version has a little bit more opportunity for you to load in some of your libraries of HERs, but on this case, we use, actually, self-illuminated materials to work as lights.

So now we move into Early Access 2. This was released on July, and it just blew our minds. This is how it looks when you log in for the first time. You have an option to create public or private sessions, and now we have-- CannonDesign has this beautiful model. We worked closely with the guys from NVIDIA to bring it up to its highest quality. They used, actually, Maya. They used our files, but then they used Maya to break down all the unnecessary polygons, and then Substance Designer and Substance Painter to create detail like this couch, for instance. You can see how much detail you can bring into NVIDIA Holodeck.

Then there are some tools like this that you can change materials. You have a library within Holodeck. It's pretty cool, actually, and you can save presets within the experience. This is something that really is changing the way we work. Let's see. And then you can also create notes, and you can attach the notes to objects. As you see that little anchor, you can actually say, hey, stay here, and it will stay.

And then the next step is let's go, OK, this is all cool, but what do you do after this? How do you bring this out of the experience? So you can take pictures inside. You can actually export photographs like these-- send it to the designer. You can also take selfies inside, which I think is pretty cool. Yeah.

[LAUGHTER]

That's me like, yeah, what's up? And you can take 360 images, as well. So I think that that is pretty awesome. The video feature is coming out soon. I'm very excited for that, and one of the main features that they changed was teleportation. In Early Access 1, you were constrained to a 50 by 50 plus/minus feet square. And now you are able to teleport to other places in your model. I think that that was necessary.

And this is also amazing. You have a browser inside the experience. You can log in into your Sketchfab account and bring in an interactive model. And here I am, like, actually-- one of our projects-- bringing it in. I think it was-- I mean, I was just blown away. And then they also have the option to take on Google Hangouts calls. So you can potentially have a client logging in into the VR experience without having a headset.

But the most impressive new feature is the HoloTable. Again, just think about that meeting that-- the video with the meeting where we are all around this table with maps and so forth. That was something that we push for really hard with media. And this is-- because we use physical models all the time still, we spend a lot of time and money building this. We think that they are really important, especially when we go for pursues. We want to humanize the aspect-- it's very cool to bring these things on pursues.

So when you jump into HoloTable, you have that option-- the same option. So you could do it now in VR space. You can load one file. It has some options to rotate and move. You have some scales. You also have a sundial you can manipulate-- do some sun studies. And for this aspect of Holodeck, you really don't have to do a lot of work. You could potentially just bring a Revit model straight into 3ds Max and apply one material and treat it as a physical model because that's-- Holodeck is actually able to take a lot of geometry. It's just the materials that it struggles with.

And then you have a way to create watchers. They call it the beacon manager, and it's basically little dolls that you place around. And this feature is amazing because before, in Early Access 1, we used to lose our clients in the VR model. Like, we were, hey, I'm here. It's like, I cannot find you. And it was really frustrating, you know? So we were like, hey, what about-- can I teleport people with me, you know? Like Star Trek, right? The HoloTable actually lets you do that, and you have that beacon manager and you see that-- an option to teleport everybody to that point.

And you also have the cutting tools. Before, it was just the sphere. They actually added a cube now to the set of tools that they have. You can scale the cube and sprinkle. And this is another new feature before-- now, you are able to paint on the geometry and it will stick to it. That was very important to us before, it was just floating. You know, you will sketch and it will float. You will have to try and attempt to manage to move it next to what it's supposed to be.

And then again, it has a private browser. so now you can actually bring in Google Maps, similar to what we do in real life, and explore the model in its context, right? So this is the St. Louis office, and we're looking at 360 images, and that is a 3D model.

Next, I'm going to just touch a little bit briefly on a case study. This is the University of Texas. It's the School of Nursing. We were asked by the client to put together an interactive model where you could pick up and relocate equipment, change the materials, do some mark-ups, because they wanted to use it as a design charade. So this is how it looked when I received the file. It was a mess.

We had a objects attached to objects they didn't belong to, and on the right side, you can see the materials. That's one multi-material over there, and we have all these shaders. So for Holodeck, that's impossible, right? And even for real time, it would be not optimized. So we did a lot of cleanup. We separated everything into their own objects, so they can be interactively moved in the VR space. And you have to think about placement, so your P foot has to be in the right place. So there's a little bit of thinking that has to go into that, but it's not as hard as Unreal Engine.

And here is a markup. This is how we decided to do the materials. I argued to them-- I convinced them to use just simple colors for now because this was actually the first time we will use Holodeck with a client. So we were a little hesitant. We were really brave to try it because we have never done it and we were afraid that we will crash, right? But anyway, we went ahead, and this is how the materials look-- Iray materials-- we use self-illuminated material for lights.

And this is the actual model-- how it looks. It was probably around two weeks of work, just bouncing back and forth between the client, the designers, and myself just to get it to the point that we lied, right? And here is a little exploration we did before pushing it down the pipe. We wanted to make sure that everything worked. We tried different things. We made sure that everything moved correctly before we sent it out. It was pretty cool, actually. And you see the model is not super sophisticated, right? That was not the intention of this exercise. We were just focusing on interactivity, nothing else.

And this is actually the photo of that meeting. We had two people logging in from Houston, two from the St. Louis office, and one from Chicago. We actually attempted to have a third person in Houston logging in, but because of the space constraint, it didn't work out. But yeah, this is how it looked. And I'm just going to play a small video. Hopefully, the audio will work, so you can see how this presentation went and get an idea how the interaction happened inside VR.

PRESENTER 2: So now we're looking at our floor plan in our simulation center in a dollhouse kind of aspect. So I can turn this a little bit to give you a better view with the skills and task [INAUDIBLE] looks like. What our patient flex area rooms look like. Nurse's station.

PRESENTER 3: Yeah, this is me, and that's origin trusting us.

PRESENTER 2: Oh, attic.

PRESENTER 4: Oh! There he is.

ERNESTO PACHECO: The lion is in red, by the way.

PRESENTER 2: How are you?

PRESENTER 3: I'm doing all right. Still getting oriented a little bit.

PRESENTER 2: Awesome.

ERNESTO PACHECO: This is the first time she ever tried VR.

PRESENTER 3: You want to go check out which room?

PRESENTER 4: I tell you what. Let's start at the elevator in the lobby area.

PRESENTER 3: OK.

PRESENTER 4: So there's the elevators. Here's the lobby. OK. OK. That's storage, or is that the computer room?

PRESENTER 3: That's the mechanical room.

PRESENTER 4: OK. So let's go down here and look at the exam rooms.

PRESENTER 3: If you would like to go ahead and grab an orient the model-- so just reach out with your hand--

ERNESTO PACHECO: So check this out-- first time.

PRESENTER 3: And hit the trigger, and it should grab it. There you go. Tech room-- the offices for the techs-- here's our control room.

PRESENTER 4: OK, gotcha. There's the community room-- the house.

PRESENTER 3: Yeah, the home health. Yeah.

PRESENTER 4: OK.

PRESENTER 3: That's patient flex with the partition wall.

PRESENTER 4: Go up there-- not just the bar.

PRESENTER 3: And actually, that is the head wall--

ERNESTO PACHECO: So this is how we--

PRESENTER 3: Family that we were using.

ERNESTO PACHECO: Already accessed one.

PRESENTER 4: But it'll also have all the connectors and things.

PRESENTER 3: Right, and so if you go a little bit closer, I guess this family doesn't have it. But yeah, we put our outlets, our nurse calls-- we can put monitors up here if you want. So we can do a monitor here.

PRESENTER 4: Yeah.

PRESENTER 3: Or a monitor here.

PRESENTER 4: Yeah, exactly. We'll have to have all those.

ERNESTO PACHECO: So yep, that's the first try in a while. But yeah, not everything goes perfectly, right? Like this is an edited video, you know. Obviously, there were some hiccups here and there, and I put together, actually, an outtake because I thought it was really funny. So here it is.

PRESENTER 3: All right. You press it on the left on your right controller. You get a thumbs up. There you go.

PRESENTER 4: Oh, OK!

[LAUGHTER]

PRESENTER 3: You push up on the D-pad, you'll get a finger gun.

ERNESTO PACHECO: Yeah, I can hear them. Listen to this.

PRESENTER 3: There you go. And then if you put right on the D-pad, you'll get a--

PRESENTER 4: OK.

PRESENTER 3: An OK symbol. There you go.

PRESENTER 4: OK. No dirty signs?

PRESENTER 3: No, unfortunately, but--

ERNESTO PACHECO: No dirty signs.

PRESENTER 3: And then like I said before, if you press down on the D-pad, you get your little teleport--

PRESENTER 4: OK.

PRESENTER 3: Thing. So what we're going to try and do is move it to the tabletop area.

ERNESTO PACHECO: So I was attempting to help my co-worker at St. Louis office, and that's where we--

PRESENTER 3: Where you see, I guess, Ernesto or somebody dancing around. There you go. Good job.

PRESENTER 2: Whoa.

PRESENTER 3: So I'm going to get a little bit closer.

PRESENTER 2: Whoa.

PRESENTER 4: Oh, I'm right in the middle.

PRESENTER 3: It's OK. And then if you do it with your left hand, simultaneously, you can do a pinch to zoom kind of thing.

PRESENTER 4: Oh, I want to zoom. I want to go over here. Am I smacking you with it?

PRESENTER 3: No, don't worry about it. I can't feel it.

PRESENTER 4: You can't feel it. Oh, good. I can beat you up with the mop.

PRESENTER 3: I'm used to the abuse.

ERNESTO PACHECO: Everybody was cracking up in the Houston office, like, what?

PRESENTER 2: So I mean, I'll show you if you go to the night.

PRESENTER 3: Right.

PRESENTER 2: It gets really dark pretty quickly.

PRESENTER 3: Yeah. I see what you're saying.

PRESENTER 2: That's kind of cool.

ERNESTO PACHECO: So yeah, that's pretty much it. We had a great experience with the first client presentation, and we have been pushing NVIDIA Holodeck down the pipe. We're actually trying to have everybody in the firm joining in. It's just a matter of hardware-- trying to get to that point. But yeah, I'm finishing a little bit early. This is-- I hope that you guys enjoy and learn something, and if you have any questions, please let me know. Thank you.

[APPLAUSE]

AUDIENCE: [INAUDIBLE]

ERNESTO PACHECO: Excuse me?

AUDIENCE: Are they still limited [INAUDIBLE]

ERNESTO PACHECO: Yes. So he asked if we are still limited to 64 materials. Yes. Yeah, unfortunately, they still have that [INAUDIBLE] out.

AUDIENCE: Have you tried it on the new RTX cards yet?

ERNESTO PACHECO: No, we haven't. We actually got access to a Quadro 4,000-- RTX 4,000 last week to test it, and it was just for rendering, but we will. We actually tested it with the Quadro V100.

AUDIENCE: Did you find that it was worth the effort to get into [INAUDIBLE]

ERNESTO PACHECO: So she's asking if--

AUDIENCE: Better during the [INAUDIBLE]

ERNESTO PACHECO: Yeah, so she's asking if the client thought it was worth it. Yes, actually, I just got an email from the Houston office just about that project-- that they want to do the next iteration. So we're happy. We're actually happy, yeah.

AUDIENCE: Actually, to piggy-back on that a little bit, you go downstairs to the expo, there's probably half a dozen [INAUDIBLE] that have collaborative features, none of them quite as robust as this. Can you talk a little bit about the decision to take extra time. Most project teams don't have the expertise or time to get into 3ds Max, but [INAUDIBLE] owns that decision to really go above and beyond [INAUDIBLE]

ERNESTO PACHECO: So he's just asking on our decision to use new technologies like this-- multi-user technologies.

AUDIENCE: Well, you have to have, opposed to some of the other solutions.

ERNESTO PACHECO: OK, why Holodeck and no IrisVR? Is that--

AUDIENCE: Yeah, right. IrisVR, [INAUDIBLE]

ERNESTO PACHECO: Right.

AUDIENCE: Works just as well.

ERNESTO PACHECO: Well, it's obviously more flexible, I think, from my perspective, especially if you bring it into 3ds Max and you know a little bit of 3ds Max. You can do a lot of things before you bring it into Holodeck. I'm sure that IrisVR will work the same up to some point. We haven't really pushed for that. We just went with Holodeck. We're happy, really. Anybody?

AUDIENCE: So [INAUDIBLE]

ERNESTO PACHECO: Yes. So she's asking if the Holodeck is still early access. That's correct. We're hoping that it gets released to everybody soon. That's up to NVIDIA, obviously. Anybody else?

AUDIENCE: So piggy-backing off of his question is, it takes a lot of code processing work for Revit to get to that level of interactivity. Do you need to be, I guess, strategic about [INAUDIBLE] meeting [INAUDIBLE] design feedback [INAUDIBLE] changes, rather than-- that is a certain amount of [INAUDIBLE] work to get it back to that level. I guess if you could just speak to how you envision that process and kind of update the experience.

ERNESTO PACHECO: Sure. So he's asking about workflow, basically, right? How do you get from point A to point B to this level of interactivity? It's not really that complicated. The first examples that I showed were for, like, Unreal. You know, so you saw the process for Unreal with the basketball arena. That was totally Unreal. It was not related to Holodeck. With Holodeck, Holodeck is a lot-- forgiven. Like you don't have to do all that optimization. You could just push a Revit model straight out of Revit into 3ds Max. You have to use 3ds Max, still, but it'll actually work for to get a plug-in for Revit. But yeah, it's not painful at all.

AUDIENCE: [INAUDIBLE]

ERNESTO PACHECO: Yeah.

AUDIENCE: [INAUDIBLE]

ERNESTO PACHECO: Yeah.

AUDIENCE: Get back from Revit.

ERNESTO PACHECO: It's not--

AUDIENCE: [INAUDIBLE]

ERNESTO PACHECO: Yeah, it's not Enscape. Enscape is what we will use if we need to have that type of flexibility, right?

AUDIENCE: [INAUDIBLE]

ERNESTO PACHECO: No. So he's asking, how is it they're connected? We connect it to that session. It's all Steam, actually. It's the gaming company, Steam. We're using them as our server, I guess. Yeah.

AUDIENCE: I did a [INAUDIBLE]

ERNESTO PACHECO: Unity? If I ever tried Unity? So he's asking if I ever tried Unity. We actually are looking into Unity right now for AR. We haven't done any VR with Unity, but that's our-- it's one of our goals to actually get some experience with Unity. Yeah.

AUDIENCE: See how workflow [INAUDIBLE]

ERNESTO PACHECO: Yeah. Yeah, we noticed that. So yeah, we definitely will push Unity, especially for AR, because we haven't really found a solution that works all the time. And Sketchfab is our tool to go right now because it's super easy. But other than that, if you want to actually have an image recognition or 3D recognitions, you have to go, you know, Unity or another plug-in. I'll take one more question, if there is another one. All right. Well, thank you.

[APPLAUSE]