Collaborative Estimating Workflows for Preconstruction and VDC Teams

RACHEL TROCCHI: Hey, everyone. Thank you for joining us today at Autodesk University. We're very excited to be here. So for today's session, our panel today will really focus on collaborative estimating workflows. That really can benefit both the preconstruction and VDC teams.

So before we get started, I'm going to share our safe harbor statement here. So please just take a minute to review it. And during the session, we may make certain forward-looking statements. These statements are not a guarantee of future performance or deliverables, and really are just based on our current expectations.

As well, if you do have any questions during the session. Please type them in the question panel. And of course, if you see an interesting question. You can actually upvote it. And it'll move that question higher on the list for us to answer. So Samira will be monitoring the question panel during the session. And we'll hopefully get to as many as we can.

All right. Now, let's get started here. So first off, my name is Rachel Trocchi. And I am a technical solutions executive on the Autodesk construction team. So I primarily work with our mid-sized customers, really assisting to streamline their construction process from preconstruction through to handover and operation.

So my background is actually in civil engineering. And then I joined the construction side of things and really worked primarily with preconstruction teams to improve their quantification workflows. By actually taking advantage of BIM technology earlier on in the project lifecycle. To really differentiate themselves during project pursuit.

I'm also joined here today with Sara Cunningham from Autodesk and an awesome group of panelists here. That we're going to get to meet, as well. So Sarah?

SARAH CUNNINGHAM: Hi, everyone. I'm Sarah Cunningham. I am a product manager here at Autodesk. And I currently work with the preconstruction team to develop the strategies for our preconstruction solutions. And I work really closely with teams like Rachel's, as well as with our customers, to understand their priorities and develop priorities for new features, and improvements, and other things related to Autodesk take off.

I've been at Autodesk for a while, now. And I've been in product management for about seven years. Before working on the preconstruction solutions, I worked in the infrastructure design space. And like Rachel, I have a background in civil engineering.

And I'm excited today to talk to you a little bit more about what we're going to dive into. And to turn it over to our panelists to introduce themselves and their work.

So a little bit about what we're talking about today. I think everybody who's here understands that building information modeling in BIM has been something that's been prevalent in the design space for a long time, as well as the preconstruction space. And we've seen surveys that say an overwhelming majority of people who are using BIM on various projects find a positive return on investment.

And when I talk to preconstruction teams or VDC teams and contracting firms. We see a number of things. Including teams that are leveraging BIM to develop new services for their customers, as well as playing a key role in estimating activities.

And that was really the impetus for how we assembled the panel today. To talk about what it means for companies to develop a practice with connected 2D and 3D workflows. And how they're leveraging those in the preconstruction work that they're doing.

So with that, I will turn it over to our panelists today from DPR Construction and Windover. And we'll start with Prashant from DPR.

PRASHANT SHARMA: Hi, Sarah. Thanks for having me. Prashant Sharma, I'm an estimator with DPR. Work with the preconstruction team. I'm based in the San Francisco Bay Area region.

Yeah, so preconstruction-- I work with our projects from concept, all the way to the CD phases, in all different types of industries, focusing on buildings. More importantly for our session here, I really like to push our preconstruction site. Specifically, estimating on what's new, what's the better way to do this.

And that's really something that interests me. I'm passionate about it. And it's been great using some of the tools, like Assemble, and now Autodesk Takeoff. Which really, I feel, has really enabled us estimators to talks to the BIM models on the project, and use them for our estimating needs, as well.

Yeah, great. Thanks for having me. And I look forward to the discussion.

RACHEL TROCCHI: Awesome. Jacob?

JACOB SKROBARCZYK: Hello, everyone. Hi, I'm Jacob Skrobarczyk. I sit in Austin, Texas, and support VDC for DPR's central region. I've been in construction for 14 years, in a myriad of roles. Most of my career, I've been focused on BIM and VDC.

I have a civil engineering degree from the University of Texas at Austin. And I've been focusing a lot on simplifying and creating clarity around the hand-off of models from design, to preconstruction, to construction, into operations, and some of our self-perform work.

So really excited about the conversation today. And always enjoy working with folks, like Prashant. And getting them the data that they need to do their jobs.

PRASHANT SHARMA: A little about DPR Construction. We are a large general contractor. We are spread all across the United States. In fact, we are also stretched across Europe and Asia, as well.

We primarily focus on buildings, really focusing on these five core markets-- advanced tech. Which today, for us, is a lot of data centers. Health care-- a lot of hospitals. Largest of hospitals around the country being built by us. Higher education-- where we focus a lot on university and high school projects, all the way from complicated science buildings to student housing.

And then life science-- something we've seen a lot of, in the last two years. Focusing on research facilities, to cGMP facilities, working with the largest to the new and upcoming pharma companies, I would say, around the world.

And lastly, not least, commercial-- building these mission critical facilities, the headquarters for the largest of companies to a small tenant improvement in a downtown. We like all these challenges.

And something key about DPR Construction-- we love technical challenges. We love technical work. And innovation is something we've been known for. With that, I hand it over to Jacob.

JACOB SKROBARCZYK: Yeah, so Prashant mentioned that we were a large contractor. We're number 12 on ENR's top contractors in 2020. We have expertise and are known for our use of VDC, Precon excellence, our special services group, which really focuses on improvements for target customers.

Sustainable construction-- so Prashant and I both sit in net zero office buildings, built by DPR for DPR. Self perform work-- so we have our own labor for concrete and drywall and really a lot of the interior scope. And then a really strategic focus on prefabrication.

RACHEL TROCCHI: All right. And now, we have Amr, from Windover Construction.

AMR RAAFAT: Hello, everyone. My name is Amr Raafat. I'm the vice president of Virtual Design Construction and Technology at Windover. I lead the VDC team to offer technology, tech-based solutions for challenges on job sites.

I received a global 2019 Innovator of the Year award from the Autodesk AEC Excellence Awards. I started my career of designing public aquariums. And I've been in the industry for 21 years working on innovative solutions using latest technology.

I graduated. I did my master's degree in architecture from the Boston Architectural College. I'd love to talk a little bit about Windover. And what we've been doing, a brief introduction to Windover.

We are 100% employee owned construction management firm. We work on full services-- estimating, project management, purchase, and construction. We are the go-to construction firm for modular and prefab construction in the New England area.

We focus on solutions for additive manufacturing, prefab and modular. We have built, over the years, expertise with great project managers and superintendents in the modular arena, combined with technology to save time on schedules and deliver projects in the shortest and most efficient ways.

We work in academic and nonprofit. Senior living is a growing field for us. Commercial life science is also growing for us in the New England area. As this field is really booming.

Hospitality-- we've been working on one of the finest hotels and hospitality projects in the New England area. As well as multifamily, where we are known for very good modular approach and built this in-house expertise combined with technology, as well as residential.

So we are basically building everything. And we like we like to build great things with great people. It is the focus of building. Most of our work is repeat clients. And we focus on the relationship and innovative solutions to build things safer, better, and in the most efficient ways for our clients.

RACHEL TROCCHI: Awesome. So today, we're going to talk about three different themes of things related to connected 2D and 3D workflows and preconstruction, in general. We'll talk a little bit about technology strategy. We'll talk a little bit about how those strategies become workflows at each of these firms. And then we'll end our talk with a little bit of a look into the future. And what we think that might look like.

But to start, let's talk about VDC strategies at these firms. So we'll start with Amr. Since you were the last person to speak. Let's talk about overall, how VDC technology fits into your company's overall digital strategy.

AMR RAAFAT: Sarah, you are bringing up a great point. About talking about how VDC technology fits in the company wide strategy. It's not only about the VDC group.

It's how we collaborate as a company, with all the field team, with a project management team. And it becomes a mindset in the company. That we are using technology to offer solutions for the challenges that comes every day in the field.

So really, our VDC technology strategy is based on constant communication between VDC team and the field team. To listen to any challenges and respond with all the different technologies. Windover has been recognized globally a few times. And one of our modular projects, Canvas, was recognized for combining drone mapping and laser scanning to improve and transform the way we build modular construction.

And actually recently, we've been using Autodesk Takeoff, using all these data built in our models to work collaboratively with our estimating group to improve efficiencies in the preconstruction process. And that's what I would love to discuss with you, and Prashant, and Jacob. On how we can transform this collaboration between VDC teams and estimating for right now and in the future.

RACHEL TROCCHI: Yeah, it's a really good point. About how the technology has to work for different parts of the company, not just the VDC group. Prashant?

PRASHANT SHARMA: Oh, thank you. I think from a DPR perspective, our strategic goals of prefabrication, self-perform, sustainability-- to enable these goals and make them a reality. Really, VDC is really-- we see it as a key enabler for these goals to be achieved.

Prefabrication without VDC-- I don't even think about it like that. We really-- whether it's cataloging our assemblies, or building on modules virtually, before we actually build them. VDC is just part of it. I don't think we think about it without VDC playing a role in it. Particularly for estimating, where I come in a lot more.

Utilizing the environment that the architects and the engineers are working with. Which today is at least-- in our experience, most of our buildings content is being created on Revit. And utilizing that to its maximum potential for my estimating needs is kind of key for me to be successful, make DPR successful. Or for our project to be successful in utilizing all the content that is shared with us. So this is a goal. And it completely fits with the DPR's perspective, as well.

JACOB SKROBARCZYK: I'd say, one of the interesting things and that is unique to DPR is that VDC is one of our four areas of strategic focus. It's in all the discussions, and all the workshops, all the retreats. VDC is mentioned for all work groups.

And it's how we do work today in pockets of excellence. And then the goal is that it's how we do business tomorrow, really across the entire lifecycle, really building towards this BIM enabled workforce. Where it's not just a separate VDC group. That every single work group has expertise in VDC.

PRASHANT SHARMA: I take if I can add to that. It's a difficult question for us to answer at DPR. Because maybe 10 years back, we were still thinking about how does VDC technology fit into our goals. But it's just how we are doing all our products today. And it's hard for us to think without utilizing VDC and run projects.

RACHEL TROCCHI: Yeah, OK. So let's continue the conversation about the technology strategy. And something that comes up every time we talk about technology, at least in the last 18 months. And that's cloud.

So as times have changed, as we all know they have. What's it been like for your firms to adapt to cloud based SaaS solutions, for example, like Takeoff or Assemble?

PRASHANT SHARMA: I can take that on first. So you mentioned Assemble and Autodesk Takeoff. The fact that they're on cloud is, I think, one of the key reasons why we are being able to have more participation within the precon group.

So we are a group of about 400 preconstruction folks, dedicated preconstruction folks. So that's a big number. Since we are a large company.

So the skill set that everyone possesses is varying. And when you talk about BIM and VDC, Revit, and all the 3D platforms. You want to kind of summarize it into a few key skill sets. That you probably want to add on to another whole, large work group. Otherwise, we would not be successful.

So tools like Assemble and ATO. In fact, I would even say BIM 360 has helped us, as well. Because that's made the model content available to a larger group. Which wasn't so used to being in the 3D world a lot.

So I think it's kind of been a step by step. BIM 360 made it easier for people to get into the 3D world. And again, because it's on the cloud. We don't have to install a lot of content on our machines. So that's great.

And then going step by step assemble, it's being great, in terms of it's kind of like a ready set way of viewing. The model has been great in some way. Again, on the cloud, so it doesn't take me 20 minutes to open up a model and consume that content.

And then taking into advanced, the Autodesk take off-- while we are still used to thinking of estimates in a 2D perspective. It is a proven way. It does work, so kind of emulating the 2D workflows in 3D, in a somewhat curated manner. Because it's on the cloud. So I can support somebody else and manage it as a setup.

As well as we have scenarios where we have remote teams overseas who are supporting us with some of this 3D model management a lot. So high level, again, summarizing-- if it's not on the cloud. It's kind of hard to visualize how, in my scenario, an estimator would just take a software and run with it. If he's never done this before. If we are issuing another tool for them to learn pretty quick and doing it all on their own on their machines. It's been an enabler for us, for sure.

RACHEL TROCCHI: Yeah, for sure. Amr, what do you think?

AMR RAAFAT: I think the cloud based solutions has been-- softwares have been really a breakthrough on how we collaborate and communicate internally and externally, with our design teams and our clients. For example, I see it on different perspectives. The first perspective is Autodesk Drive, for example. We use that all the time with our projects to deliver laser scans, that we took on site, to share-- to put to clouds and share virtual tools with measurement tools.

The client, not necessarily, has to be really good at Revit or at the ReCap Pro, to see all those scans and go to the virtual tool. But when they go to Autodesk Drive and gives them that link. They can really view the as built documentation for any release for future facility maintenance. Or view that historic preservation project we're working on.

So I see that Drive has been a really great technology for us to communicate and collaborate with others. We see also, on another perspective, that Autodesk Takeoff. Which we've been using for a few months, now.

You have really the VDC team. Who was really good in Revit. We just did Umax and Assemble. And you have the estimating group. Who has great expertise in estimating, and the numbers, and all the good stuff.

So how to fill that gap and bring that collaboration into, really, a different level, was Autodesk Takeoff. Which had helped us to communicate in real time all our findings. Whether it's a design model, or our model we are developing in-house.

And it becomes not only a visualization tool for our estimating group, but as well as analyzing it. Breaking all the different pieces to see what ceiling square footage, versus other takeoff methods, screen takeoffs, or 2D takeoffs.

So we have been seeing a breakthrough in how we realize this. Cloud based solutions have helped us collaborate better, and in a real time, with our internal teams, to really deliver more accurate estimates, to be as a more integrated team than ever.

JACOB SKROBARCZYK: I just want to add one more thing. I mean, one of the big concerns any time we go to a cloud based solution is performance. And really, with the quantification workflows and estimating workflows, performance is actually really great.

Like the estimators want to receive Revit content. That's broken into categories by unit format. And so just that nature of wanting a model broken into these certain ways makes it so that they can open it really fast. There's actually performance benefits from using these cloud based solutions.

If you're using single sign on and they can get in right away. They don't have to install any software. And they can just get right to the data. It's super helpful. It takes away all the friction of getting the user into the platform.

RACHEL TROCCHI: Yeah. I think you bring up a great point there-- just ease of entry to get into a lot of these different tools with cloud based solutions. Before we kind of double click into the workflows, though.

I'm curious, Prashant, from your perspective sitting more on the estimating side. And a lot of the tools that a lot of estimators are comfortable with are typically desktop based solutions. So what has that transition been like for you guys in your estimating teams to start to leverage some of those cloud based solutions?

PRASHANT SHARMA: Yeah, so I think, as I mentioned. I think what's happening a lot more now is-- our typical estimator, the role of an estimator, or the person who fits that role of an estimator is also constantly evolving. We've had also the scenario of thinning of the lines between who does what in a particular company. And so I just want to start there. So again, we'd say, the skill sets really vary.

The second piece is because of this, a lot of folks are working together and working collaboratively. Both internally, externally is really the need of the hour today. That's another factor to play in mind.

And then, I would say, the other demand-- it's not demand. That the great development that's happening on our estimating site is today, we are not really-- most forward thinking projects are not focusing on OK, you do an estimate update today. And then after three months, there'll be a drawing revision going from CD, to DVD, to CD, or whatever. And then there'll be another estimate.

Now, today, the aim is to go as real time, as much as possible. So being able to work collaboratively, being able to take the content from the architects and engineers in a more efficient manner, as well as in a more real time basis. That's what we look for. Now, all of this is pointing towards a kind of a cloud based solution.

You know, that you're not downloading content, loading the file into a desktop platform. Just downloading takes 10 minutes. And then you upload it, open it, export it. That is, for us, that typically I get to do an estimate sometimes. So that just makes the tool not that useful.

And if you could push that boundary even more, like in some type Autodesk Cloud where the architect is uploading the content live. Where Jacob and his team, they do a great job of-- I am not managing the model, which models to be viewed into my estimate.

But the specialist, the VDC specialist who is managing the change management of the model is telling me, OK, use this model. And it's already there in the right spot for you to use. You just have to open up your tools for Takeoff to access that model.

Well, now we're getting somewhere, where desktop is old. That's like way behind. Where all this is not even possible. So that's my perspective, you know. It's really helpful to have this happening in a cloud format and kind of collaborative--

RACHEL TROCCHI: Awesome. Yeah, it's definitely something that we've kind of seen across the board with desktop solutions, really just kind of lacking a lot of that collaboration. So awesome.

So let's kind of double click a little bit more into some of these quantification workflows specifically. So Prashant, just to pick on you again. Describe kind of the quantification workflows currently used to add DPR. And kind of what that is looking like, in terms of a lot of those collaborative approaches within the cloud based solutions.

PRASHANT SHARMA: What we do is we take five highlighters, different colors. We take a drawing set and we highlight skills. But that is how our industry has evolved over the years.

And there are still estimators who like to have a set of plans in their hands. And no, we don't do Takeoff by hand. But the still estimators like to run through drawings in their hands.

Now, tools like PlanGrid or maintaining the current files that have enabled a lot of estimators to switch over, gradually, to a digital format. But so that's one. Well, physically, how you consume the data is the very first piece. The 1,000 page spec book and the 200 pages of drawings, how do you consume that in the most efficient manner? So that's one.

Again, the answer is, how do you get to that data fastest? And instead of sending it to the printers, or if there's a change in the drawings at every day. So you just have no choice now anymore. But you see it on your screen. And the pandemic has-- kind of working remotely has kind of trained us all to see it on the screen better. So that's a great transformation, I would say.

I know we are discussing VDC. And I'm talking like 2D printouts. But that is changing first. Then, the other perspective is we are used to doing 2D-- by we, I mean estimators are often used to doing 2D takeoffs. The tool that a lot of us GCs have been using hasn't changed so much, in so many years.

But I do like Autodesk Takeoff. It's a good, fresh perspective on even 2D Takeoff, not just 3D. But what's happening. What I'm seeing, at least happening. Is there's been like this evolution of all the 3D tools and Takeoff. They are like-- from trying to do apps in Revit, to Assemble, to ATO.

And on the other side, on the 2D side, going from highlighters, to trying to scale AutoCAD drawings in CAD, to scaling PDF drawings. To now, trying to combine the two together in 3D and 2D, I think, is helping us estimators a lot.

Because now, what I can do is the same workflow. Which I am doing in 2D. Which I'm well trained to do. Which is a way to consume the project information and making sure I catch everything. I can apply the same workflow in 3D. And the two take offs can be merged together to make the estimate input successful.

So the bulk of the workflow transformation that I am seeing today is more centered towards that. You are used to doing a 2D take off. I'm not going to force you to take off the 3D model content. Just because it's faster.

But understand that we, as estimators, have the responsibility of taking the risk of the project. So the workflow has to be such. That I get all the scope of work visualized. So take your 2D workflow. And kind of take that workflow in a 3D environment. And back it up with a 2D take off, simultaneously.

That is successful. And kind of standardizing how you do that every time makes that workflow better. So that's kind of high levels support. That we are heading towards, at least.

RACHEL TROCCHI: Awesome. And I'd be lying if I said, I haven't heard from a customer within probably the past month or so. That they're using highlighters still. So it's definitely very prevalent out there in the industry.

But it's awesome to see you guys are really starting to push those boundaries a little bit. And really, taking what you can from a 3D model. Because that's a lot of times a misconception. That you can do 100% of your take off within that 3D model.

But in reality, you're still going to have to go back into 2D and still collaborate with some of those quantities. But awesome. So Amr, I'm curious to hear what the quantification workflow is going to look like over at Windover?

AMR RAAFAT: A combination between the 3D and the 2D. In fact, what we are trying to do is to build a 3D building from 3D data. It's all about the data we have.

So the architect starts designing by adding all this design data and quantities into information-rich Revit model. And then, what we do is that we proof the information and then print 2D drawings. That been used in the field to build a 3D building.

What we've been trying at Windover to do is to build the 3D building from the 3D data, without losing all this information trying to go 3D, 2D, 3D, 2D, and 3D. In our MEP coordination process, using mixed SIG reality, for example, to do overlays between what's in the model. And what new duct work will go inside. That helps for you to see.

But then the quantification part, what we're trying to do is that for years, we have this information rich Revit model. That has all this quantity data built into it. You can find all the quantities. You can export it to Excel.

So that was adding a little bit of sophistication to the process. Where you can extract those data. What actually Autodesk had been doing. And it's a breakthrough. And that with Assemble and Autodesk Takeoff to simplify this process and make it.

I agree with Jacob, when he mentioned about the performance. And how the look of this Autodesk of models will look like and analyzed and break to point, to pieces. So it was a breakthrough with Autodesk Takeoff, actually. When you can break all these different Revit data in this web based cloud solution to make it simpler and faster. And in real time, to communicate with the estimator.

In terms of real time. I think Prashant mentioned that models get updated all the time. And that's a challenge. So every couple weeks, we have a new design model. So what we do, what we've been doing at Windover is that our VDC group work on updating those models into the cloud.

And so that our estimating team can look and work from the latest models. And that takes not much time at all. But it's also, you have to be on top of always updating the model.

Sometimes, the models are not the key thing here. Models sometimes are not models to be for model based estimates. So we need to go to the Revit model, rename everything, and making sure that this data will be digested very well in the Autodesk Takeoff to be used efficiently by the estimating team.

And that's what we've been doing. We took the initiative. If the model is not ready for model based estimates. We go and dive into it. We name everything, make sure all the estimates.

And it's really satisfying. when we started building this library in house of models and estimates and numbers, working together collaboratively with estimating team. It's a huge investment for the future. When you're trying to get all these RFPs out, and all these quantities out, and these estimates out.

So we think of it as a long term investment in this technology. To save us not only time, but also enhance our estimates and making sure work in the most efficient way. And can be easily communicated in a very appealing way to the clients. So they can understand their projects very well, too.

RACHEL TROCCHI: Awesome. All right. So just for sake of time here, we jump over to our next question. So curious, how do your teams really go about working with internal and external teams to really share models? What works well? What challenges do you run into?

And there's kind of two different parts of this question. So first, I'm curious. How do you guys collaborate with architects early on in the project to be able to get access to those models?

And then, I guess, second part of that would be more internally. How do you guys collaborate with your VDC teams from the estimating side to get access to those models? So Jacob, do you want to start first on this one?

JACOB SKROBARCZYK: Yeah, sure. So really, our goal when working with external partners is to push for them to host their content on our account, within our docs platform. And so if they can cloud work share. And we can use design collaboration and some kind of design build or integrated delivery method.

That's the ideal situation. That's what we're after. It's not realistic to expect every project to go that way. We're trying to push to really go beyond just asking for the model.

We have to have really purposeful conversations about filling out a design responsibility matrix, defining what models we're going to get. What use cases they're available for and when. And just trying to eliminate as much friction from the hand-off.

We still have folks that are using legacy platforms and for legacy cultural challenges. That where they want to share a disclaimer. That maybe says, you can't use this model for any purpose. And so it's really trying to be proactive with chasing the right work.

That would put us in a situation where we can influence the design, influence the model, to actually influence the design. And to get models and drawings that actually are constructable. And that can be used to put together a good estimate.

RACHEL TROCCHI: Awesome. And Prashant, curious to kind of hear your side or your thoughts on this coming from, specifically, the estimating side. Because I know a lot of times, architects always put up kind of that resistance, initially. When it comes to sharing those models, especially with-- so most preconstruction workflows.

PRASHANT SHARMA: So I do also want to make a point, first of all. That our approach, for the most part, has been we are not recreating 3D models from scratch to estimate from. There's some parts out there that there's value in that. At least at this point, you're not.

For most part, we are trying to consume the content created by the engineers and architects. I want to start there. Now, the next piece is-- I think, the first thing we usually hit is we get that indemnity form, that Jacob mentioned.

Use this model. But you use it for information only. We typically still get that. I think we are finding workflows to work with the model-- even though it's for information-- but still adhere to the drawings, I think. So we've been able to find ways to do that pretty successfully.

The next piece on the challenge bucket is different architects and different engineers are still-- their libraries are different. They're similar, but they're still different. And different companies are modeling different levels of details at various intervals.

And that's what I think our VDC team does a really great job at. It could be a good and a bad idea. Because on the other side, our VDC team is kind of coordinating through execution plans or whatever.

We would like to see in the TD model. Would you have the drywall model with their fire ratings, for example? Things like that. So I think that's been a challenge. But I think we are finding success there, as well.

And then overall, it's also on our side about internal teams. Making sure folks are welcoming the approach of using 3D models. And not having everything modelled from day one is usually seen as a challenge. But then again, as I mentioned earlier, having a hybrid approach of 2D and 3D management during estimates is key. That's where we've been successful.

But the other key part here is a kind of a challenge, as well as what works well. Is pick a tool that is-- almost like a minimalist looking tool. It doesn't have 1,000 icons on it. And that seems to be the thing the software developers are focusing on. And some of the PlanGrid and Autodesk Takeoff goes there.

If you ask an estimator to start a new tool. And it has a huge panel of icons on top-- not really encouraging. But something like Autodesk Takeoff, you literally have maybe six icons on the whole page. Working with internal teams, getting them going-- that's been, I think, the other piece that does make things easier.

RACHEL TROCCHI: Yeah, so definitely. I've heard you mention the simplicity factor of-- especially, when you're initially starting. Probably, for an estimator, it's a bit daunting, opening up that model initially. So it's definitely a good piece there, on some of the simplicity piece. So Amr, what are your thoughts over from the Windover side?

AMR RAAFAT: In the recent years, I have seen a mindset shift between working between builders, like us, and architects. In fact, right now, most of our projects-- 90% of them may be fully coordinated in Autodesk Navisworks. So we receive a workable, information rich models from architects and engineers. And then we work with our subs to build all these different models for different trades.

So if we can reach that level of detail and modeling. In fact, with every constructability review, you can really count at some point, to some extent, on these models to give you some estimates about quantities. That's externally.

So it's not becoming, now, the architect model, the engineer model, and the subs model. It's becoming our model, as a collaborative approach, more like working together with the architect.

And it grows, as we go. Because our architects attend our coordination meetings on a weekly basis. And we can update the model live. And we can update that on the Autodesk Takeoff.

Working internally-- for years, we've been using Revit. And use this data to help our estimating team find ways that you can look at it in Excel sheets, on 3D views.

But in the recent years, we have noticed with Assemble and Autodesk Takeoff. We can always update that and communicate-- the estimating team can really share those models, look at it, analyze it, and use it, actually, in their presentation internally and externally, to communicate the estimates, and all the volumes, and all these different pieces. So that's how we communicate internally and externally with our design partners.

RACHEL TROCCHI: Awesome.

JACOB SKROBARCZYK: I just want to add one more thing. So within the internal team sharing models, we're trying to really eliminate all the friction. So we're really excited about some of the tools. Where we can publish to Takeoff from docs, publish to Assemble from docs, and just taking another step out of the process.

So it's not, hey, you can get to the data tomorrow. It is within hours versus days. And just eliminating that friction really works better for the timelines that we're talking about in preconstruction. We're trying to get to more real time. And we have shorter windows to provide that feedback.

RACHEL TROCCHI: Right. Yeah, and really being able to kind of tap into that central common data environment that everyone has access to probably makes it so much easier for teams to be able to get in and all access that information internally. Awesome. All right.

So do you guys have any examples of how your organization has overcome resistance to trying new technology? I know I've seen the construction landscape-- and even more so, probably more prevalent on the preconstruction landscape- some of that resistance to trying new technology. I'm curious how you guys have overcome some of those examples? Jacob, you want to start first?

JACOB SKROBARCZYK: Yeah. Yeah, I'll start. So within DPR, one of our core values is "ever forward". So we have a little bit different problem or different challenges than maybe other players. There's plenty of folks who want to try new technology and workflows.

Where we really have to focus on is taking full advantage of those workflows, before trying to move to the next shiny object. And so a lot of that is around what are the right tools to use? When should we use them? And really, just sharpening the saw, and getting better at using some of the technology we have now, and taking full advantage of it.

And even then though, not just surface level taking advantage of the tools. So like in Assemble, it's not just looking at the model. It's when we've been able to break down the model by assembly code and have uniform at level three type breakdowns. That really gets us to start taking advantage of the tool.

As opposed to just checking the box that yep, we use VDC on this project. We're using it for estimating. That's helped us create the structure and the focus that we need to keep taking advantage of these technology tools.

RACHEL TROCCHI: Right. And I'm sure as you kind of dig deeper into those tools. You're finding even more benefits and value on those projects. So now, it's not just, Oh, you know-- again, like you mentioned, just checking the box. It's really what value and benefit can we really get from these different solutions? So awesome.

Amr, I'm curious over on the Windover side of things. What are your thoughts here?

AMR RAAFAT: You bring up a great point, actually, with how we use technology and workflows within the culture. So at Windover, we embrace the mindset of innovation.

In fact, we are actually looking at things. It's not like about the latest tool, or latest drone mapping, or latest laser scan. It's about the solution-based, more of a solution. And all of our supers and project managers are always eager to embrace new solutions that build on technology.

For example, we launched last year our platform idea platform. You know, it stands for "innovations for design, engineering, and automation". And we wanted to extend our leading edge technology to the whole EDC industry. We've been working on projects in Texas, and in California, and Florida, and in Pennsylvania, and actually, in Quebec-- to help other EEC firms-- including engineers and architects and peer group builders-- to embrace technology and resolve challenges on site using additive manufacturing, laser scanning, drone mapping, and BIM.

Our estimating group, as well, embracing technologies-- it's all about not the latest tool. But it's more about the solution. So finding an example, a project doesn't have to be big. And working on it, show how this technology will work to save time, offer clients substantial cost savings. That's a key. Then, everyone will be in. And we use it on most of our projects. That's the approach we've been taking.

RACHEL TROCCHI: Awesome. And Prashant, do you have any examples from the estimating perspective?

PRASHANT SHARMA: Sure. Yeah, the estimator is known for-- the VDC folks, I'm sure, say this. The estimators are kind of the most difficult ones to kind of get on board on the use of 3D model. Come on, guys, come on. We are kind of known as that.

But mainly for some reasons, to really acknowledge the work was complicated. I think what's worked well is-- well, here are the issues. And try to solve them. That's really number one. It's pretty basic.

I think a few things that have worked well for us is-- there is, again, the right skill set. We've tried to host office hours in our own company-- and some region based, some nationally, depending on what topic.

And as simple as say, I'll be here on the call for 45 minutes. If you guys join, great. Whoever has time, join. And it has ended up being some great conversations.

Folks join in who just want to listen, to "I have no idea how to get started on this, but I want to hear what the other guys are saying. How did they start?" And it's brought up some good conversations. That is one great piece to get people on board.

The other piece is, I think, when you get this resistance is-- maybe for those who are starting to get into the 3D environment more. The very first take off, for the very first time you want to use the 3D model-- don't try to do everything from the model, on the very first time. Piece by piece.

Or I would even say, the very first time in your project. What I've seen successful is just aim to have a model on Assemble or BIM 360 or Autodesk Takeoff. If you want to go all the way there.

But even BIM 360 or Assemble, just have the VDC specialist make the environment for you. All you have to do is just log in. And you're literally looking at the model, right then. And use it for your meetings. Or use it to run through with your project team.

That has been quite successful for me. Where we are in a meeting with an architect and an owner. And you bring up the model. What does the ceiling look like? Why are we looking at a plan, when we can actually just open up the model?

And everybody in the room is like, why is the estimator opening the model and showing his-- is he he estimator? Is he the VDC guy? But no, really, it's just like a set of plans. So it doesn't mean I'm doing any Takeoff. But by just going in there and using it part by part is a good way to get more buy-in from additional team members in perspective plans.

And maybe another example is a subcontractor reached out. And I'm like, OK, I have this assembled model. Would you like to use it? And he's like, well, I don't open Revit files.