Diversity and Its Influence and Importance in Engineering Education

FABIOLA CLAYTON: Hello, everyone. And welcome to our live panel, Diversity and its Influence and Importance in Engineering Education. My name is Fabiola Clayton. And I am an education program manager with Autodesk Education Experiences. And I will be your moderator today.

For all of you attending our panel, the format will be the following. We will have three rounds of preselected questions followed by Q&A from the audience. Please send us your questions using the Q&A option on the side of your screen. And use the upvoting function on those questions you want to see answered today.

So without further ado, our panelists today are Dr. John Anderson, Dean of the College of Engineering and Architecture at Howard University in Washington, DC. John, thank you for donating your time and for speaking today to educators.

JOHN ANDERSON: Thank you for having. Glad to be here.

FABIOLA CLAYTON: Our next guest is Dr. Gary Bertoline, Senior Vice President for Purdue Online in Learning Innovation, distinguished professor of computer graphics at Purdue University right here in Indiana. Hello, Gary, and thank you for being here today.

GARY BERTOLINE: Hi, thank you for inviting me. I'm looking forward to the conversation.

FABIOLA CLAYTON: And finally, we have a Dr. Carmen Cruz from the Armstrong Flight Research Center. She's the lead education program specialist at NASA office of STEM. Carmen, gracias, for accepting this invitation.

CARMEN CRUZ: Thank you for having me as well, and happy Hispanic Heritage Month to all of us that are attending.

FABIOLA CLAYTON: So Carmen, I will start today's session with you. Can you please let us know a little bit more about your work at NASA and a little bit more about your background.

CARMEN CRUZ: So I always tell people that I know I have an amazing job at NASA. As a young girl, my dream was always to work at NASA, so I've been able to really come full circle. My background is in K-12 education. I worked out in the Houston, Texas area for many years, surveying both formal and informal educators, worked in San Antonio, Texas doing higher-education work, and so worked with mentoring Latino students, pursuing STEM college and career pathways, but also assisting and supporting the University with different STEM degree accreditation programs.

So obviously, I'm very well versed in K-20 and passionate about education being a first-generation Latina myself and always happy to support students. At NASA today, I have the privilege of working with three different programs. I work with-- one of them happens to be Space Grant out of the Office of STEM Engagement. And so with Space Grant, we service 52 states and territories across the country who provide STEM access to students within their state, from border to border, through universities, community colleges, and also affiliates.

I also work with next-gen STEM who focus-- that focuses on K-12 efforts for both formal and informal educators inclusive of museum environments, nonprofit organizations, just really building that coalition to, again, broaden STEM participation across the country and to just really increase diversity, equity, and inclusion. And then also, most recently, I picked up working under the Minority University Research and Education Project. That's a mouthful, right? MUREP-- I'm going to call it MUREP.

So I support some of their programs under MUREP, which focuses again on Minority-Surveying Institutions, MSIs, inclusive of Hispanic-Serving Institutions, HSIs, and HBCUs, and also tribal colleges, and, again, underrepresented students to just really broaden STEM participation with an emphasis on providing students some of those industry experiential learning opportunities, such as internships, fellowships, and different things like that. So again, pleasure to be here.

FABIOLA CLAYTON: Thank you so very much. That is very, very impressive. I'm going to pass now to Gary. Gary, you have an impressive title as well, VP of learning innovation. What is that, a VP of learning innovation does? And what made you passionate about engineering education?

GARY BERTOLINE: Yeah, thank you. Yeah, that's the fun half of my title. Although, the other half is Purdue Online, which actually is important because we're also talking about accessibility and affordability. And that's one of the reasons that Purdue is really growing in that particular area. And that relates to our topic that we're talking about today.

So I have a long history in education. In some ways, being older helps. So I started off many, many decades ago as a high school and middle school teacher. And so I spent some time in K through 12, and so I have a pretty deep understanding of what that's about. I was a school board member for a while. And so I've kept my passion for K through 12, which I'll talk about here in a little while.

But I've always been involved in engineering, engineering technology education, higher education for most of my career. I did something through the support of the board of trustees here at Purdue University as well as the president to take an existing college and really look at how we can recreate it. In other words, if you were to create a college from scratch in this day and age, what might you do?

And so that's where the learning innovation comes in. We took an existing college that had actually been losing enrollment for 10 straight years, and we made it the fastest growing college on campus, doubling enrollment, and very high placement rates, and very high starting salaries because we took that idea of reinventing higher education. It's based on what we know about learning. We've learned a lot about the science of learning over the last few decades. And so we adopted 10 different principles that we designed the curriculum around.

And we created new programs and new opportunities, which also help to diversify both our faculty and staff as well as students at the same time. And so we are, right now, the fastest growing college here at Purdue University. We also said that we really need to be much more proactive in how we work with K through 12.

And so I went to the president of the University and the board, and I pitched an idea of starting our own high school. This is a public charter school. We now have three of them, two in downtown Indianapolis, one in South Bend. These are meant to serve underserved and underrepresented students and school districts that are challenged in many ways.

And it is a public charter school, so anyone that applies can get in. And so we've actively tried to make a difference in K through 12. And this model has proven to be quite successful. And we hope to expand beyond that. And so the learning innovation piece is really about what we can do to rethink both K through 12 as well as higher education in general.

FABIOLA CLAYTON: No, thank you. This is really impressive that you are creating a pathway for students that otherwise would either not go to college and certainly not go into STEM professions. So thank you for that. And John, my next question goes to you. Can you please let us know about-- I know you have a vast working education, so tell us about your work and why you're passionate about helping students become engineers.

JOHN ANDERSON: Thanks, Fab. So my academic career started at the University of Florida, a very large institution. And I then went to Howard University where I have been a faculty member and, most recently, dean of the College of Engineering and Architecture. And during my time at Howard, I spent-- I took a leave and was a program director at NIBIB at NIH, National Institutes for Biomedical Imaging and Bioengineering.

So I had an opportunity to be at University of Florida. I spent a sabbatical at the University of Maryland. Now I'm at Howard, and I was at NIH. And so you get a chance to really interact in a lot of different environments and meet different students and be able to come to a Historically Black College and University, HBCU, at Howard was a great opportunity for me.

And one of the things I experienced as a student was, I had faculty members who were really helpful. And so that really inspired me to become an academician, to do research. And at Howard, we have many, many talented students. About 40% of our student body is female. And so we're one of the largest percentage of female students in engineering in the country. And we have students who are very talented, but often may have significant need.

So we have a significant percentage of Pell Grant recipients. And so you have an opportunity to work with talented students who are really interested in becoming engineers and help them realize their dreams. But some, as you can imagine, are first generation. Because of the financial need, they may have heavy commitments to work to make up the difference. And so we have the opportunity at Howard University to really serve a wide range of students in terms of their needs and really meet their needs and help them become engineers, computer scientists, and architects.

And that's always a great joy, and I'm sure my panelist would agree, when you see a student really develop and beginning to gain that confidence and to be able to help them along the way, whether it's as a faculty member, as an administrator, is something that is very enjoyable and very fulfilling, being able to serve our students in this way.

And certainly, as dean of the College of Engineering and Architecture here at Howard University, we are able to implement broader initiatives that impact a wide range of students with the goal of really continuing to develop young minds, give them opportunities to have great careers, and to have big impact on society.

FABIOLA CLAYTON: No, thank you. That's a great introduction. And I had the pleasure of visiting Howard campus many times. And I have seen what you're talking about, the number of female engineers and architects there. And all of this has to do with the sense of inclusion, when you're walking around campus and you have people like you, so I appreciate that effort at Howard.

So obviously, to our audience, we have a panel of experts here in industry represented by Carmen-- education, post-secondary and secondary. And then Gary, you kind of both, based on what you said too, in your efforts of K through 12. So the next question goes to all of you. So we know engineering schools struggle to attract underrepresented minorities. Why do you think that is, and what can we do to change it? Big question, I know.

GARY BERTOLINE: So we have, three or four hours to talk, is that how long we're talking?

FABIOLA CLAYTON: I know, right?

GARY BERTOLINE: We just have some systemic problems that we really haven't fully addressed in my opinion. One is the pathways that we have going into engineering programs. It's hard for higher education to make up for lack of preparation and the unfairness of students that go to high schools that don't properly prepare them, especially in the math and sciences, for whatever reasons. And I'm not here to point fingers, but that's a real problem.

When you don't have the right kinds of scores to get into our universities, it's almost impossible to make up that deficit. They're not given good counseling as far as engineering being a viable option for them, for whatever reason. And so the K through 12 system, in many cases, don't do a good enough job to actually show students the opportunities and why engineering actually is a very fulfilling career if you think about it and you think about what you can do to actually have an impact in the world.

In many cases, it's talked about that you have lots of math and science, and you're going to be this geeky person that does geeky things. And it goes way beyond that. And so how we describe it, in many cases, doesn't do it justice.

And so this pathway thing becomes really important. Even what we can do to create better pathways from community colleges to four-year institutions, we haven't done enough in that arena. And so engineering is competing with every other discipline right now.

And there's other disciplines that just seem to be more attractive, for whatever reason. And so we have to really start working on changing the narrative of how engineering can really have a positive impact on the world and less of its historical or geeky nature, as I describe it.

FABIOLA CLAYTON: Right, no, totally. I appreciate it. And, of course, like I mentioned before, that's through-- by your efforts with the charter school and the Polytechnic High School. So Carmen, let me ask you now your opinion here of troubling statistics, good and bad.

So according to the National Center for Science and Engineering and statistics. Engineering degrees earned by women have doubled since 1998, which is good. We went from 12.3 to 24.5. But it is still not representative of the population and has been staying kind of at the level of the 24%. Why do you think that is? And what would you propose to change that?

CARMEN CRUZ: I think that's an interesting statistic Fab, and definitely one that needs to be talked about more often. I know myself, being representative of that female population, I take it to heart. And when you break down the demographics, it's even more disheartening. So definitely there's a lot of work that needs to be done. But there's a lot of industry, a lot of amazing institutions across the country that are doing-- they are doing extra efforts to really increase that representation when it comes to women.

But I would say, in terms of just really focusing on-- and I think both Gary and John said it best a while ago with, once we have students there in higher education, we really need to support them when it comes to first generation, when it comes to Pell Grant eligible, we need to support that aspiration that they have to really pursue that engineering degree and really provide them more information on, here's what your career path could look like, especially for females.

But I think for females, a big thing also comes-- and I've often heard it before-- is that imposter syndrome. Can I do this? Can I stay in this environment, especially when there's very few of us? So really helping support them once they're here-- I think of myself at NASA.

And for me, it warms my heart to know that many of our interns are females this semester. It's a larger percentage that are female. And as I tell every single intern that's interning right now with us, is claim your space. We all deserve to be in that space.

If an engineering pathway is where you want to go, there's room for us all. So a lot of it comes back to really just strengthening that STEM identity for-- reminding people to be inclusive in the workforce and to just really remind them that they too belong here. And I will say, I've been with NASA for less than a year.

And I've been in spaces that I never thought-- I never dreamed were even possible. But definitely, it's been a welcoming environment. And I think that's where we need to go in terms of getting women to really persist and stay in that career pathway and not have that career shift.

And I think it was John that said it, going back to what he was saying, mentoring is critical, not just in higher education, but also once you pursue that career pathway, we all-- and myself being new to the federal government, there's so much that needs to be learned.

And so it's so nice to have people that you can look to and say, hey, I don't understand this. Can you further explain this to me? Or what does that even mean? Because coming from industry to government is much different. And so again, just being supportive and promoting that inclusive culture, it plays a big role in it.

FABIOLA CLAYTON: No, definitely. Thank you so very much. John, my next question goes to you before-- I'm looking here at the chat. Great participation. Thank you, everybody. And hi, a lot of hellos. I see a lot of familiar faces, meaning texts. So that's great participation.

John, so the percentage of Black engineers actually went down from 4.7 in 2008 to 4.3 in 2018. What do you think we all can do to change that?

JOHN ANDERSON: So thank you for a great question. And certainly, we all-- many of us think about that question all the time, whether it's industry, the support that we receive from our industry partners to further our academic retention programs, whether it's partners that provide internships, expansion learning opportunities for our students. It's something that is really at the forefront of many, many minds and, in part, because there is a significant body of literature and research that says that diversity ultimately provides a big benefit to your organization.

So there's a desire to have a more diverse workforce, and particularly, in engineering and computer science and architecture, as far as Howard University. So to move that needle, I always think, going back to what Gary said, you really had to have a whole transformation of K through 12. There's just so much that is lost there that no university can really recapture to the degree that you would really would hope so.

I think, unless there's a real Marshall Plan at that K through 12 level-- and I'm not saying I know what that would mean. But what we have now will continue to reproduce the same results. So unless there's some significant change there in the K through 12, I just don't think we'll have enough students, as Gary said, that are well-prepared for studying engineering, computer science, and now become an architect.

So what we have tried to do is say, meet students where they are. So that number one, we try to not lose any students that come in. So that's one of the ways that we're trying to increase that percentages is to really have all hands on deck to ensure that we have the highest retention rate possible. So we have a college-wide tutoring program that's supported by an industrial partner where we have peer tutors. We have graduate students who work with the program as well.

We have adopted something that started with the pandemic, which are at-home lab kits. So we're trying to get our first year students, in particular, we're trying to get kits in their hands right away so that, again, engineering is not seen as something that they can't do. They see it as, OK, I can program this device. I made the light go on. And as you can imagine, every little success gives you some confidence.

And so we are trying to look at, how can we-- particularly our first-year students-- how can we create experiences, relationships? How can we connect them to the upper-class men and women so that we really have them entangled, if you will, with our college and our upperclassmen and so they feel as if they belong. The imposter syndrome hopefully is less of an issue here. But it's always something where we're trying to figure out, how can we best give our students confidence, give them the basics so that they can really believe, after all is said and done, that they can achieve this goal.

I think the K through 12 will be, again, a harder problem with a much greater societal change that would be necessary. But we're hoping to make some headway on that by having more high school relationships. And I'll give you one quick example where there's a program where students in high school is taught data science.

And they're paired with the University. So we're looking at being paired with one of the local high schools so that we can, again, give them a better sense of what engineering is all about and help them to see what the opportunities are and what they can do at this time, so they can best position themselves for these opportunities.

CARMEN CRUZ: And to kind of go along with what John just said, Fab, I want to add that, at NASA, we work-- I know, at least, the team that I work, with all the different teams that we work with, we definitely work with K-12 schools and nonprofits. And I keep going back to this. It has to be a coalition of people working together to really, as John said, meet students where they are. And he's absolutely right.

Just that one STEM engagement could be that one, that one moment, that just sparks that imagination and students and gives them that curiosity to remind themselves that they too can dream. They too can aspire to be this big industry leader. They too can work in engineering. But it's a collective effort. And as he said, and both Gary and John said, there's a lot of work to be done. But we have to hang on to hope and hope that some of our efforts are really reaching these communities, especially these underserved communities, these rural communities.

I know, I grew up in a rural area in the state of Washington. And STEM education was never really emphasized. So it's nice to be able to work on the other end where we can't have a direct impact with these students and just remind them that, regardless of where we come from, we can all aspire to pursue a STEM college and career pathway. And if engineering is the route they want to go, they definitely can.

There will be challenges along the way, but it's not impossible. And so definitely, with a good support system within that institution, it is possible. All things are possible is what I always tell students. I'm a dreamer. And I would not be where I am today had I not continued to dream big, had I not continued to believe in myself, had I not had amazing support systems behind me. But just knowing that the end goal is within reach-- so absolutely, John, I could not agree with you more on that.

FABIOLA CLAYTON: Thank you, Carmen. And I just want to do a little bit of a housekeeping here. We have more than 200 people live right now. And I'm seeing a lot of people putting questions in the chat instead of the Q&A. I just copy and paste somebody's question to the Q&A so this question can be voted. So please, please, please put your questions on the Q&A because it's the only way people can vote questions. So we are going to go in order of the most voted to the last voted.

So I'm going to move now to the questions in the Q&A here. So the top question we have is, someone asked, I was discouraged from obtaining an engineering degree in college and changed my major. What kind of programs exist now that encourage women to pursue a degree in STEM? And I think Carmen talked a little bit about it, but anybody else want to answer the question? If you know of any programs that officially encourage women to go into STEM careers?

GARY BERTOLINE: So Purdue has a number of summer programs where they invite, anywhere from elementary school to middle school and high school, young women to attend. And so they get some real-world examples of engineering. We try and make the experience active. They're not sitting there listening to how to solve a math equation. We do much more interesting things. And so we've tried to do that. And that's actually helped.

Our College of Engineering here, about 10 years ago, started making a real focused effort. And they've made a difference. They've moved the needle, but it just takes a focused effort and a plan, and the tactical plan, on how you're going to approach this because you can move the needle. It's just, it takes patience and time and practice. Because you learn from some of those things that you try that may not work. But the bottom line is, you can't stop trying. You have to keep on-- keep the effort going and be committed to it over the long term.

CARMEN CRUZ: And I just want to add something to the person that asked that question. I too was discouraged from pursuing a STEM college and career pathway as an undergraduate, one of the biggest regrets I have in my life. I understand that, being first generation was going to be a difficult pathway now. But if there's anything I could change, it would have definitely been that.

But today, I will say, and I will say it loudly for the 200-plus people that are in here in this room, Fab, I had 2.81 as an undergrad, 2.81 GPA, but never, ever did I let that define me as a person, define my career path and where I wanted to go. And today, I stand tall and proud as a NASA federal government employee and also a doctor of education and being first generation.

So I know far too well that barriers can be overcome. And nothing is really impossible. So to that person, if you still aspire, keep aspiring. Find your way. Forge your path, and you will find that dream become a reality.

FABIOLA CLAYTON: No, I love-- if I might add to that person, because prior to Autodesk, I worked 20 years in education. But I feel more and more companies are not looking at GPAs anymore, but looking at a combination of factors. So if you are a working parent, and you're going to school, the GPA has a totally different connotation here. And I think-- sorry, Gary, I feel like I interrupted you or John.

JOHN ANDERSON: Go ahead, Fab, I'll come at the end. Thanks.

FABIOLA CLAYTON: That was it. I want to encourage this person too to continue.

JOHN ANDERSON: So thanks. One comment I did want to make is that, there are on-ramps that are becoming available through companies, whether it's cloud computing or cybersecurity. So there are certifications that you can receive. And so you can have a non-traditional path to getting into the tech field. And from that starting point, of course, you could then revisit your dream.

But there are ways to be able to participate in tech and without necessarily going through a four-year degree path. And I believe there's going to be an increasing number of opportunities in part because there's such a great need for talent. And trying to fulfill that need has been a challenge. And so they're just going to be other paths that you should be aware of with a lot of these big brand name companies, if you will, that are in the area of cybersecurity, cloud, et cetera.

FABIOLA CLAYTON: No, thank you. So there's another question here from Josh. Hello, Josh. He's asking, how can we, as educators, seek to engage those currently enrolled. I see far too much attrition, and I do not always know what to do. And we know that attrition in minorities is higher than the general population. So that's an excellent question. I know a lot of educators here have the same question.

GARY BERTOLINE: I know that the research says that one big factor is a sense of belonging. And so whatever you can do to increase that sense of belonging once a student arrives on campus-- Purdue is-- they have a small number of Black students, for example. And so that is hard for some students to take when they first step on campus.

And so we do a lot on trying to address that and help them feel like they belong here, that they're included in the things that we value. We try to mentor them to go into leadership opportunities through clubs or whatever. But you have to consciously do that very, very early on so they feel like they belong.

JOHN ANDERSON: One of the things that we do at Howard, we have what we call an FTIC meeting, First Time In College. And so each month, myself, as the dean, I meet with the freshmen. And we think that's a very powerful statement to make, essentially, to have new students meeting with the dean and meeting with the chairs. And the point is to, as Gary mentioned, trying to get them acclimated, trying to get them to feel as if they're part of a community and that there's not this big difference, gap between them and their chairs and their faculty, their professors or the dean.

And so we've had a great meeting last month. And we see that sense of community began to occur pretty early. Because when the students introduce themselves, hi, I'm a chemical engineer from Houston. Then you hear someone else say Dallas. Well, already, they start to feel like, hey, somebody's from my neck of the woods, so to speak. And you can really see how they just started to relax and feel like they could ask whatever question they wanted to ask.

We had one of our graduates, who's a VP at Clark Construction tell his story. And when he told the story-- he didn't make it as, I knew everything, I made no wrong, everything was great, I had a super high GPA. He really told it in a way that I believe helped them to see that you should feel connected with my story because many of you will go through similar things. And not all of us are going to be perfect students, but there's a path for you and that Howard will help make it be the difference for you.

So we find those alum giving their stories, again, helps them feel like they're part of something bigger. And that's just one concrete way that we have tried to create community so that we have more of our students feel connected and then, in turn, have the success that they want and that we would like to see them have as well. And also, we work very closely with our student organizations.

CARMEN CRUZ: And I just want to add, Fab, going back to my own research from working in higher education, John and Gary both said absolutely right answers. They have to feel-- students, underrepresented students-- I know, I was once one of them-- they have to feel that sense of belonging. And you have to capture it that first year to alleviate some of that attrition to the person that asked. But it goes back to just really intentionally mentoring those students, reminding them to set some of these goals.

And students enter higher education. And we think they know everything, but especially first-generation students. We don't know how to goal-set. We don't know what that even looks like. We don't know a lot of things. So just really finding that mentor, that advocate that's going to help them along the way and start figuring out that pathway for them-- OK, we said we want to set some SMART goals. They have to be SMART goals too-- reminding students of, what are they?

They have to be specific. They have to be attainable. They have to be-- all the different characteristics. Time management, that's another thing that sometimes our nontraditional students will struggle with because, a lot of them, we have to remember, we have to be cognizant that, like myself, I went there as a nontraditional student already with a family.

So just finding ways to really support them and finding people that will help them along the way, as John just said-- seeing is believing. They have to be able to see people that look like them that know-- and I'm going to say this loud and clear-- know the struggle. There will be struggle. But when you get to the end, and you receive that college degree, it is so rewarding and just knowing that barrier has forever been broken for your family, for your familia. It's just a surreal and incredible feeling.

So definitely, just reminding them of their why-- every time I wanted to give up as an undergrad, I had an amazing mentor that would remind me of my why. Why was I there? I was there for my son. I was there for various different reasons. I was there to be the first in my family to ever reach such a milestone. So definitely, there does need to be some support. But also, get them actively involved in the institution so that way, they too feel that inclusiveness.

FABIOLA CLAYTON: Thank you. There is another question coming here from Rachel. Increasing diversity in engineering is undoubtedly important, that said, me and my other female peers have sometimes felt an uncomfortable spotlight put on to us by diversity efforts. How do we toe the line between pushing much needed diversity in engineering and singling out diverse individuals in ways that may inadvertently make us feel othered? Long question, but very good question. I completely understand where she's coming from. Do you need me to reread that?

JOHN ANDERSON: I guess there's no example that could be given with the format. But I was just trying to get something-- perhaps you could share something concrete to help me maybe see exactly what the question-- what the person is trying to get from us?

GARY BERTOLINE: So I think I understand what is being asked because I know, when I was dean, because we didn't have a lot of women faculty, they tended to be put on all the search committees, for example, because they represented women. And so they, at times, pushed back on that. It's like, you know, I have a career also to advance, and I need to be scholarly and all these other things. And we were asking too much of them at times. I think that may be what this question is related to.

I don't know if I have a good answer to that, other than, what I tried to do, once I discovered that that tended to happen is to talk to my leadership team and raise their awareness and make sure they're sensitive to that and not ask too much of underrepresented faculty within the college itself.

FABIOLA CLAYTON: No, I completely agree. And I understand what Rachel is saying here by feeling othered. You don't want to feel like you're part of a different group than your peers. You want to be included. That's the whole thing about the sense of inclusion and belonging. So I appreciate the question. And then I think it is a good answer here because she's trying to figure out how to toe this line, right? How you guys do it-- and Gary, I think you answered very, very, very well. Thank you so very much.

I'm looking here the questions. There's another one coming. I work at a secondary school, and I teach design and redesign. In my class, there are many girls. Are there anythings that I can focus on so that the girls can thrive and see a future in designing?

GARY BERTOLINE: So if you don't mind, I'll jump in again here. One of the things we did in our high school is allow what we call passion projects. And so don't tell the girls what the project is. Ask them what they would like to work on? And guide them in a way where you find that they're intrinsically motivated, they're passionate about it. And see if you can get them to choose the project, and have them work on that. We've seen the motivation and the creativity and the overall results improve dramatically when we allow students to do passion projects.

FABIOLA CLAYTON: All right.

CARMEN CRUZ: I also can't help to go back to what John said earlier about getting some people in the institution too, Fab, in terms of-- and I see this all the time at NASA. There's very few of us that are Latinas that work at NASA. And so I always have people that'll say, a win for you is a win for us all. So seeing is believing.

And so I would strongly suggest to get someone within that area, within that industry area to come out and talk to those girls to really just highlight some of what they did to really get to where they are today and the different added benefits that they're going to see if that's something that they choose to pursue, so definitely getting someone in the room that could really help them with furthering that understanding and building that-- we keep going back to what really is engineering and just giving them an overview.

I always think of the students that I go out and talk to. Some of them are, like, I don't want to go to space. Well, you don't have to go to space to contribute to that NASA mission directorate. There's various different things that you could do at NASA to still be a part of this mission, and this is how.

FABIOLA CLAYTON: And actually, Carmen, you kind of already answered our next question. So Shannon asks, are there ways that professional engineers can get involved to help educators? She says, I am a professional engineer, and I have a passion for education and mentoring the younger generation.

However, I found it difficult to break the barrier between the professional side of engineering and the education side of engineering. So I think you already gave a little bit of an answer. You know, of course-- if I may speak for you, Carmen, offer to mentor, right?

CARMEN CRUZ: Yeah, offer to mentor. Offer to speak to them and just remind them that-- and so sometimes, when we have different subject matter experts at NASA come out and talk to schools and institutions, we remind them of the different career paths. While we want to highly emphasize that STEM is an amazing opportunity pathway for students, we also want to remind them that they have to find themselves.

And where do they seek to go? But there are other things that you could do within that same profession to just really still be a part of it. So it just depends on what they aspire to do, but with a big focus on just pursuing higher education. I know for me, if you look behind me-- I like to showcase my degrees because I want to remind people that, I'm first generation, a Latina. And often told-- I was the one that was destined to fail.

And today, as I said earlier, dreams do come true, and they have definitely come true. So definitely, just be that person that could mentor, that could motivate, that could encourage, and inspire students to continue to dream big. Because we want to dream big. If you want to be the next person to go on that lunar surface, keep dreaming. You could be the next person. But you have to have a dream in order to make things really happen for yourself, is my advice.

FABIOLA CLAYTON: Thank you. But I think the guest here makes a good point too, that it's hard sometimes for professionals to navigate between the two, professional and education. Is there any advice you have for professionals here in organizations that they should join in order to find these volunteer opportunities?

CARMEN CRUZ: I think, it terms of professionals, getting involved with-- for me, personally, I love hearing about what the Society of Hispanic Professional Engineers is doing. There's different things that are coming up for students. There's the Society of Women Engineers. So just really getting involved with some of these different organizations that your heart might speak to. Another one that always speaks to me is obviously like SACNAS.

They're always looking for professional mentors to review some of these different student projects. So there are ways that, as a professional, you could fully engage with some of the students. And I know, myself, I sit as a reviewer, as an editor, for various different orgs throughout the country. So I would highly encourage you to get involved in that because, again, these are aspiring students that are seeking to just continue to dream and be where we are at some place in our life today.

FABIOLA CLAYTON: Sorry, Carmen, can you repeat the name of the last organization you mentioned? Was it an abbreviation? And I don't know what it is.

CARMEN CRUZ: I mentioned-- it is an abbreviation, but that's the organization starkness, SACNAS, S-A-C-N-A-S.

FABIOLA CLAYTON: N-A-S-- OK, thank you. Just to make sure we all got the abbreviation, so we can Google after this. And I know, John, that there is also the National Association of Black Engineers with chapter-- I know your campus has a chapter. And that would be your suggestion too for for the professionals?

JOHN ANDERSON: So we, it's the National Society of Black Engineers. And yes, that's a student organization that many of our corporate partners may have relationship with. And so that gives them the opportunity to speak. But oftentimes, we have a relationship with our corporate partners so that there can be engagements that either are college-supported or at the departmental level. So for example, we had a women's leadership panel that we co-sponsored, our College of Engineering Architecture, co-sponsored with the Society of Women Engineers, which Carmen just mentioned.

And so one of the things that we would do is, when we co-sponsor, we work with the student organization. We have a women's leadership panel that included participants from corporations as well as government, as well as education. And so if someone is at a point somewhere, and they want to connect with the University, oftentimes, if you are aware of who the college recruiter is, then that can be a starting point for meeting the student organizations in terms of opportunities to speak or assist them in some way.

But in general, we find that we work with companies that then have individuals who are connected with the University. Like Fab would be connected to Howard, for example. Or we have-- and so, through those connections then, we're able to start the relationships that lead to Fab inviting me on this panel, just building on that relationship.

And then Fab can bring in others from Autodesk that could then interact with our students and faculty at Howard University. So normally, it's just start small. And then, if you can connect with the college recruiter or the college lead at your company, then that can help create connections at universities that they work with.

FABIOLA CLAYTON: Thank you, John. And Carmen, there is a more of a request than a question by Deeana. She says she works at a correctional facility in Washington state and would like to know if you would be willing to speak to her students about your success in engineering.

You don't need to answer right now. I believe that, if you register for the conference, you can request a connection to any of us here. And her name is Deeana. And Deeana, I suggest you connect with Carmen via the conference website. And then she can talk with you about it.

Another question I have for all the panelists here is very dear to my heart, as the mother of two girls, is that career decisions are done as early as middle school. And of course, the decision is made between grades five and eight can actually hinder the student's ability to pursue engineering career. Have you seen that happening? I know, Gary, you have this effort happening to avoid this type of things. And what do you think needs to change?

GARY BERTOLINE: It happens all the time. And actually, it happens more than people realize because you never see the students that didn't get here simply because they never had the math or science preparation to take the right sequence when they get the high school. And that's a real problem.