Who Said Revit Can't Be Used at Project Start for Electrical Design? We Didn’t!

JULIEN DROUET: Good afternoon, everyone. So thanks for joining this session. It's really good to see so many people for a session about electricity in Revit. So it means that this is a topic that matters. So we start with first, introduction about ourselves. So my name is Julien Drouet. I am part of the technical sales specialists organization at Autodesk. So I've been working at Autodesk for 11 years and I have an electrical engineering background. I used to be an electrical designer before joining Autodesk, and I was also a project manager at a big contractor in France before joining Autodesk.

JOSE ARIZA: OK, thank you very much for being here. My name is Jose Ariza. I'm based in Barcelona and as Julien, a technical sales specialist for EMEA. So my background is mechanical engineering. And before Autodesk, I was a consultant, helping companies to implement BIM methodologies for multidisciplinary projects.

JULIEN DROUET: OK. so why did we decide to do this session? So first decision I have it in mind for many years now because of that. So certainly, you already heard this kind of quote. Maybe you think it, even. I wanted to try to change your mind about that and prove to you that things are possible. So in this session, we will use very basic stuff in Revit but, built all together, I think it's an answer too, especially for the second topic. So for the first one, I come to you a lot, to be honest I will push harder with the product manager to improve what is existing. But with the existing the parts are in Revit, I think we can do a lot.

So the first thing we will start in this session. We want to show you how to start from scratch. And the problem is that when you start a project from scratch in Revit, there are no features at all in the model. And Revit is mostly based on getting load from terminals, from electrical features, so we have to find a way to get the information of the load on the panel without putting any terminals, without doing everything that we are supposed to do, but more during the construction phase of the detailed phase.

So due to my background and my experience as a designer, I know that at the beginning of a project, engineers are working with ratio. And the goal is, of course, to have the full load and the load by panel, so the estimated load, to be able to size the panel, to size the equipment, transformer, and so on, to size the room with that. But Revit it is not done for that as it, I would say. So most of the times I discussed with different people because I know how it's working in France. It seemed that even in the US, you are working with ratio. And the most common method is to use a load area ratio that are applied on the area where the panel is supposed to cover.

And based on predefined load classification, so you choose, for instance, I want to know, globally, the estimated load for HVAC for this zone, the estimated load for all the lighting for this zone, and so on. Based on that, you apply some ratio to make the first estimation of the needed load. So how to reproduce this method with the available tools inside Revit? I will now show you different steps. So once again it's very basic stuff.

And so first, of course, from scratch you just link your architectural model. So in that case, this is an existing model. But by the way, you get it in your project. And the first step, of course, is to position the different panels in your project. So at the beginning, you know more, or less, where will be the main panel, and where will be the different sub panels that you will have in your project. So you start by positioning the different panel in all level in your model. So that's quite understandable.

And then, just to ease the next step, you put some annotation, for instance, on your mother for all the different panel you input in your project. So you have to do it, of course, for all the level. And so that's the first step in your process. And then you will define the zone that each of this panel is supposed to cover. There is no zoning tool for electricity. So that's why we will use what is existing .

So the HVAC zoning. So you have to place the spaces on each level, which can be quite easily done with the automatic tool. And once you have all your spaces, you will create your zone. So using the HVAC zone tool, you start with first, the first zone is the zone with the main panel. So in this triangle, this is the technical room where you will have your main panel. So the main panel is a zone by itself. So this room. But then, for instance, the second zone I will create-- in this project, it will be the kitchen area. So you just create this zone. So you give it, of course, the right name. And you do it for each of your partners on each levels. So let's say the second step. And so now you do it for the second zone.

So this is, once again, really basic stuff. So nothing incredible. But actually, the goal is to be able to know the area of your partner covering zone. And to get this information, at the panel level to use your ratio. So once you have done it for each panel at each level, you can create some views with Legend. So to have something more, let's say, visible understandable-- so this is a very convenient tool to have immediately an overview of what are the different zone that are covered by your panel. So you can create a specific view for each of your level. And once this is done, of course, that you have to make the panel to panel connection.

So to create, let's say, the electrical tree of your project-- so in these projects, it's quite basic. So I have one main panel, and different sub panel. And all the subpanels are connected to the main panel. In reality, you could have used, for instance, the best bar. It should be working on the same way. But let us consider that at the beginning of the project, you're not sure how you will connect things. But you know that you will have different panels that are fitted by the main panel. So once you do the panel to panel connection for each of your level, you can review, globally, what you did.

So for instance, by using the system brother, that is a very convenient tool to have a global overview of your electrical installation. So in that case, I have my main panel. And the main panel feed first sub panel, second sub panel and so on. So I have all the organization of my electrical project. That is done. So far I didn't do something very difficult. But I am preparing the project with very basic stuff for what will be done later.

So another way to look at what I did is to use the panel schedule tool. You can customize easily this tool to have something for this very early stage of the project, to have some schedule more readable, simple, just to have the information you need. So you remove all the columns that you don't need. You create just something easy. So once you create, and the corresponding load, so that I will be able then to have immediately the information I need.

So once you have customized your partner schedule, you can create this banner schedule directly. And here you can see that, for my main panel, I have my [INAUDIBLE] or something like that. And, of course, at this stage of the project, the road is set to zero because I have no effective load inside my project. So that was the very first step. So just preparing the information. Now, how can I get load without putting all the features that I need to do? For that, we created what we called dummy load ratio family.

So for the dummy, we have we had a debate with Jose. At the beginning, I called that fake load. So he preferred dummy, so we changed for that. So what is this family? Actually, this is the most simple family you could do. This is just a box. And on the box, I put one connector. So this is virtual family, of course, it's not an element that I will have at the end of the project. It's just something to be created to represent the load that I will have later. On this family, I just put some parameters so the [INAUDIBLE]. The parent load, the active load, and the ratio, I will apply for this kind of load. So in that case, this is the HVAC load-- dummy load. And I just created this parameter for the ratio. On the connector side, this is a three phase connector.

So just think about the load classification to have the white one. And once I did it for the different kind of load, I want to take into consideration-- I just put it in my project near the panel. So when I say near the panel, actually the need is just that this dummy family load are in the zone that the panel is covering inside one of the spaces. So here I have my HVAC, my lighting, and the other powers. So I could have done much more, but let's limit it to three. And of course, then I just connect this dummy load to my partner. I do it for the first sub panel. I have to reproduce it to redo it for each of my zone and each of my sub panels.

So once again, very easy manipulation, so you just copy what you did. And then you reconnect this dummy load on each panel. The thing is that if you remember one of the parameter that I put in this dummy load family, is the ratio. So I will have to fill this information. And, of course, the area. So and the area is the value of the zone-- the growth area value I will get from the zone-- and put it in my dummy family. That's the goal we have in mind. So once you did it for each of your sub-panels with the system brother, you can review if you did it correctly, you can create, once again, a panel schedule. So this is really, really simple. You will see that this is what we need as a start to get further.

So the problem is that, by default, I am not able to get the zone area and put it in my family. It is not possible by default. That's why we will ask Dynamo. And so I asked Jose, because I can't do anything with Dynamo, but he can. I asked Jose, could you write me a script that will let me get for each dummy family, the value from the growth area in the zone. So the objective I have is assign the panel zone area to each dummy family. That's exactly what I did and what I said, and what we did.

So in that case, the growth area of the zone, I want to put it in the total area of my family. And then I want to calculate the active load for each dummy family. And the active load is just the load by area ratio multiplied by the total area. So this is a very simple math operation. But in that case, I will get the active load for each dummy family. But in Revit, most of the time you are working with a parent load. So that's why we need to use the Cos Phi value. And the apparent load with we will be just the active load divided by the Cos Phi. So Jose, explain what you did.

JOSE ARIZA: Well something important, as Julian already said, that we are using the basic tools in Revit. So we are going to use the same in Dynamo. So you don't need to be a master in Dynamo to reproduce the script. So the first thing we need to understand is why we are using Dynamo. So the first thing is, we cannot use calculate values outside schedules in Revit. So we can calculate things in Revit, but we are a bit limited. So in Revit, we cannot make calculations using values from different categories. So it's something we need to do in this case. And it's also not possible to match unfiltered values using different parameters from different categories.

So with that, Dynamo will help us to get access to all the Revit parameters we need to calculate everything. We will be able to operate with these parameters and we will match and establish relationships between different elements from different categories. So let's take a look. The first step of the goal-- assign the total area for each dummy family. So as you can see here, we have organized the this script where all the nodes in different groups with our specific color code, so you can understand what we are doing. It's a step. So mainly this script will allows us to do three things.

So select all the families we need to sell it in the project. So family all the dummy families for each could take load classifications for a A, B, and C lighting, and so on. Know the place they are located. So this is the most important thing to know. And then, extract the information for the entire area and set this value in each dummy family. So let's take a look at what is happening in the script. So first, we need to select all the dummy family. So it's super easy in Dynamo. With just two notes, we can select all the families. So the next steps is to know, in each space, where those families are located. So we don't know automatically in each zone they are located, we need to do it using first the space. So then we need to select all the zones we have in the project.

OK so after that we will have two lists, one with all the dummy families listed by zone, because we can get the space name for each dummy family, and then another list with all the zones listed by name. So the next step. The next step is match both lists to see what I assigned to each other. So then, the final step is to get the total area cover for each zone. And of course, the last step will be to assign to set this value to each family. So with that, we will get the total area for the time zone, and we will apply this value to each family. So let's take a look at what is happening.

JULIEN DROUET: So you will see that the script that we created for this operation is split in three steps. So the first step is what Jose described. The second and the third step are what I said previously-- just the calculation, the math operation. So meaning that once I have my area of value, it's just a script you multiply this value by the ratio in the family. And the last step is to divide it by Cos Phi, you get the value in volt amps and not in watts. So that's just easy to do. It was important to say because you wouldn't have understood why we clicked three times on different scripts.

So before doing anything, if I select one of the dummy family, I can see that the value are set on zero. And I put the ratio I want to apply. So don't worry about the value, it's just an example. You can put whatever you want. And then I will launch the Dynamo player that I am able to do. So not the script, but the player. So the first thing is launching the first script. So I select-- you can see that, right now, the value in the total area is set on zero. And once I launch my first script, I have the value. And of course I have in this family, but I have it in all the families in all the projects.

So that's one of the main interests of Dynamo. I can do everything manually, but it would take a bit more time. So then I just launched the second and third script and all the values are calculated in my dummy family. So meaning that as each of these dummy families are connected to my sub panel, my sub panel, the load assigned to my sub panel, is exactly what I intended to do at the beginning. So apply a ratio by load classification and put it in the sub panels. And of course, as my sub panel is connected to my main panel it means that, at the project level, I have exactly the estimated load by load classification for the full project.

So I have it for each sub panel, and I have it for all the projects. So does it makes sense? So here you can just review it through the panel schedule. And so if you open at the main panel, you have this information. So globally, at this stage of the project, I can consider more or less that the estimated value, based on the ratio I use, is about 800,000 volts, more or less. I have an idea about the size of the transformer I need to use for this project. But, and Philip in the room won't say the contrary, the fact is that it's not enough. We need to be more accurate, and we need to introduce factors.

So in Revit, you have these kind of factors that are associated to the load classification. So this factor will be applied for each element-- for each connector actually-- so for each electrical element you have in your project. But the electrician, the applied coefficient at the circuit level, and they applied coefficient at the panel level. So meaning that you need to think about all the things that only utilization. So you have simultaneity, coincidence. And Revit doesn't take that into consideration by default. So we discussed that with Dynamo, we are able to introduce simultaneity coefficient in our process. So that's what we will show you.

And with this method, we will be able to manage the load with coefficient at-- so the feature, of course, with what is already existing, but also the circuit, the panel, and you can have even a different coefficient for the main panel so that you are able to rate the global load of your project at different levels. So what do we want to achieve? So here, consider that for the panel X, so you take one of the panels. I have a circuit A, and the instant load, or the estimated load I had with my method previously, is 100 volt amps.

So I will introduce what I called a coincidence circuit factor. And my goal is to calculate the considered-- sorry for the name, was not so easy to find the right one but that's what we used-- so the considered circuit load, which is just the instant load multiplied by the coefficient. OK? So I can apply this coefficient and have different coefficient for each circuit. In that case, the considered load for my panel is this. It's not this, it's this. That's the first step. Then, at the panel level, I have my value for panel x. I do the same for panel y or for panel z. And here.

I can introduce for each panel-- so at the bottom of the panel-- another coefficient if I want. And in that case, I haven't updated, estimated panel, and a new value. So I can do it for each panel. And at the project level, I have my main panel. So here, this value is the sum of it, and I can add another coefficient to have the value I want to set with all my coefficient. Of course I can put 100% everywhere, and that I will have this. But with this method, I'm able to say, to customize the value, I want the coefficient I want, how far I want to go with simultaneity notion that is not available by default in Revit? So that's what we intend to do.

So what do we need for that? We need to introduce new parameters. So for this session, we decided to use project parameters. We could use shared parameters, it would work exactly in the same way. And I need a different new parameter. So the coincidence circuit factor, the considered circuit load, the coincidence panel factor, then the total of the considered circuit load. OK. Then the considered sub panel road that will be the total of all the considered circuit load. And finally, the total considered sub panel load and the total project panel load. OK? So these are the new parameters I need to create. And yes, it's important when you created this parameter, the two first ones are applied on the circuit. And the five next ones are applied on electrical equipment.

So in Revit, it's not a big deal to do so. So you just create a new perimeter. So you give it the name you chose previously. So this [INAUDIBLE] name I decided to use. And you just have to be careful about the units you will use for each of your parameter. So the main factor is type. And then you select. So this circuit factor I applied on the electrical circuit, so you just select the electrical circuit, and that's it. And you do it for each of the new parameter you intend to create. So in that case, the load will be an apparent load type of parameter.

And this one, the considered circuit load, is applied for each circuit, and so on. Don't remember how many-- well I did. Yeah, I did a solo and just because this one is for the panel. And in that case, you have to check the right box. This is for electrical equipment and not circuit. So you do it for all of your new parameter. And once it is done, you can review that for your circuit, you have this new value that is set on zero in the beginning. And this new parameter is available for each of your circuits. And for the electrical equipment for the panel, same. You have all the new parameters that you created.

Just important, the two last ones are only for the main panel because this is the total of all the panel load and the coincidence factor for the panel. Jose will explain how to apply it only for this panel. And to be consistent, you will customize and update your panel schedule and create a new panel schedule with the value with the parameter you just created. So the coincidence panel factor here, the coincidence secret factor, and so on. So you can create exactly what you want with the panel schedule.

And then, once it is done, you just created it. You create a new one for four main panel, of course, because it won't be exactly the same parameter you will use. And then it's available to be created. So then you can run the value. By default the calculations are not done right now, but you see that everything is ready for the next step. And once again, Dynamo will help a bit to assign the right value in my new parameter.

JOSE ARIZA: So as the previous step, we split this script in three steps-- four. So the first one is to calculate the total considered circuit load for each panel, and then apply the different factors again. So I'm going to explain the script for this first calculated total consider circuit load by panel. So mainly, we are going to select all the panels on all the circuits we have in the project. But the most important thing is to filter out the main panel. So when we need to work with the sub panels. So for that, we have this specific part.

So in the first box, we are selecting all the panels and all the circuits. And in the second box, we have different nodes with different metals to filter by panel. So in the first part, we create yes or no parameters for each panels. We need to apply which one is the main panel. So we are filtering by this specific parameter. And then, with the circuits, we have a custom node that we can read the panel they belong. So we can filter as well for this main panel. So with that, we will have two lists again, one with all the panels, and another one with all the circuits.

So the thing here is to group all the circuits by panel and then check the list with the panels and with that other list with all the circuits, or organize by panel. With that, we can match again, and filter by panel. So with that, we will have a list with all the circuits organized by panel. So the next step will be to get the-- consider it circuit load for each circuit, and apply the simple math operation that the sum. So with that, we would calculate the total considered load for each panel, and then we'll set this value for the panel. So the tricky thing here is just to collect the information by circuit and sum all the values and apply this value to the main panel.

JULIEN DROUET: So the next step is just to have a look at what will happen when you run the the different script. So once again, I have my four step script. And if I look at the parameter in my first circuit here, the value is set on zero. And so after running the first script, I got directly the value at the circuit level. The second script will give me the value at the panel level-- at the sub panel, of course. So in that case, here I will make all the sum and I have the total circuit load. The third step is to apply this coefficient on this value. And I have here the total considered sub panel.

The two last steps-- they are, as I said, only for the main panel because I will just apply my coefficient on the total of all the sub panel load. So when you look at this, like this is not so obvious. But think about the fact that we prepare all the panel schedule and for the main and for the sub panel. And here it's much easier to see what happened. So we have the value for each circuit for each the sub-panel and then for the total. And if you look at the main panel schedule, you have it for the full project.

So that's the way we found to introduce this simultaneity notion in the process of load estimation. And I think it's quite interesting because each time I have the opportunity to discuss with an electrician, he always said OK the demand factor existing with load classification is cool but it's not enough. We have to take into consideration not only the utilization factor, but also the simultaneity. And I think we could find a way to introduce it.

And, once again, it's quite basic so Jose told me the Dynamo is basic. I agree, maybe, yeah. For a Revit, actually there is nothing difficult. So now we want to move forward. And so we had, at the beginning, a way to start from scratch and use this method of ratio. But then, when I moved from schematic design to detailed design, I will start to put terminals, to put features in my project. So let's see how to adapt the method. So it's, once again, nothing difficult. So let's consider I put in the kitchen zone some elements. And some of the rooms are OK.

So they are done on the electrical parts. So I have to create, of course, the different circuit and connect this secret to the local panel, I would say. So in that case, this is the kitchen panel because we started with the kitchen zone. And I can do it for all of the electrical elements I have in my project. So here I have one circuit for lighting features, here this is for a floor socket. So whatever you want. So you have created all of your circuits. And it is connected. But you see that there is another part in my kitchen zone where I have still nothing. I only have my three dummy families that are still here. The problem is that now, the zone area is not the right one because I have to fulfill a part.

So all of this-- I have my terminals. So with my method is no more valid because the area is not the right one. So what I just have to do, actually, is to remove from the zone all the spaces where I already put the electrical element features. And then we run the first script with it at the beginning. And in that case, the value of the zone area that will be affected to my dummy load will be only the zone where I didn't do anything yet. And the value I have on my panel, it will be partially real elements and dummy fake elements. But the value of the load is the right one. So considering that the ratio I used are the right ones, of course.

But I am able, actually, to make evolve my method throughout the project since I did what I have to do in one room. I just remove it from the zone, and then the value on the panel level is still the right one. I had a discussion with the product manager in Revit that this is a manual process which is maybe a PD, so we didn't have time to think about automating this removing zone, but certainly it's something possible with Dynamo. OK, so just to finish this session, I just wanted to present you at the end of the project how it looks like. So this project is a real project, as I said. So it's a French building in Grenoble in the Alps-- in the French Alps. And Schnieder Electric was the owner. And they gave us the access to this electrical BIM model.

So you can see that there is a lot of things. And you see that what we did with the circuit is corresponding to what is done really. But in that case, everything is done. So I've removed my dummy family because I put everything in my project. But what I did, also, is to import in my project the famous-- or to recreate the famous parameter I did to apply my coincidence factor. And it works actually perfectly. So if you consider this a panel so the A02 road, or street, whatever-- so I have different circuit. But if I look at of the schedule, here if I open the schedule-- so sorry the names are in French because it's a French project-- but I can see on the white side that I have all my coefficients. And I am able to apply this simultaneity coefficient even for, let's say, a project at the end of a phase.

So this method is not only available for early design phase, it can be used all along the project until the end to manage more accurately the load estimation and the load consumption of my project. So, last but not least, this is a slide that Martin Schmidt has me to add. Currently, we have an MEP research process. And you can apply to this research project that could help to know exactly what you think Revit need to be improved in. So what are the main topic we have to care about to improve the MEP part of Revit?

And you see that's all I did. So I created with Dynamo. But internally, we are thinking about finding ways to have a better early design stage in electricity. So please don't hesitate to subscribe to this project. So in the presentation, in the BPT I uploaded this morning, you will find this slide. So you you have just to use this QR code or directly to type this URL, and you can subscribe to this project and help us to improve Revit. So this is question time. Thank you first, for your attention. And so do you have any question?

JOSE ARIZA: Julien, just one thing. We share the Dynamo scripts and also the dummy families. So you can replicate easily everything.

JULIEN DROUET: Yes there is a Revit template in the material zip file. So in the zip, you have all the scripts and you have this template where you will have all the parameters, the families we used, and so on. So of course, not the project because this project, I am allowed to show it, but not to share it. And the videos, if you are interested, I can update the zip file and put all the videos we used because as we are asked to put the PDF and not PPT, you don't have the video. So I will, if you want, I can update the zip file so that you will get all the videos we used during this presentation. Any questions? Yes.

AUDIENCE: How did you [INAUDIBLE]?

JULIEN DROUET: In that case, of course if you are working on the some trial project for instance, there will be an issue. It could work with link projects. So in that case, you could imagine to have just a file where you just manage it and link it. That could be that could be a way. Another question? Do we have a microphone? I don't know if we have a manual microphone.

[INTERPOSING VOICES]

AUDIENCE: Just from our office we've recently purchased E-TAP software for doing electrical design. Are Autodesk looking to do something themselves that competes with E-TAP or--

JULIEN DROUET: I have no information about that actually, I don't know.

AUDIENCE: Because you can do the full electrical design with a plug-in use in using E-TAP.

JULIEN DROUET: I'm not aware about-- Any other question? No? Yes?

AUDIENCE: Why didn't you use it electrical distribution system instead of creating your own parameters?

JULIEN DROUET: Why did I use electrical distribution for--

AUDIENCE: Why didn't you use electrical distribution and a demand factor instead of using the percentages coefficient

JULIEN DROUET: Yeah. That's a good question.

JOSE ARIZA: Because it's easier to manage with Dynamo. Yeah, but it's possible as well. In that case, it will be applied everywhere automatically. So that's the main idea this place is to explain an easy, a simple way, to manage the design phase. So the easiest ways to manage project parameters. So if you don't have further questions, I thank you all for your attention.