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Providing VDC Training to Journeymen and Apprentices

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Description

Drafting in VDC programs takes a combination of industry knowledge and software knowledge. In order to be proficient, a drafter has to pull from both knowledge sets and the best VDC personnel have some level of field experience in order to know how systems should be built correctly and efficiently. This session will moderate a discussion on ways to train union labor, both from the field and through the apprenticeship. In both cases, there is a need for some level of proficiency. For apprentices, more jobsites are incorporating coordination software in the field. They need to be able to use the software tools to read, interpret and build. For journeymen using their experience to become draftsmen, they need training on how to use software to design, coordinate and fabricate. The discussion will talk about how contractors around the country are approaching this training, what content should be taught to each set of people and how they approach bringing in labor to the office.

Key Learnings

  • understand that it takes a combination of field experience and software proficiency to be a successful VDC drafter
  • clearly see the goals of a mechanical drafter training program
  • appreciate the employer/labor relations and training initiatives and cooperation
  • Appreciate the value of field experience and software knowledge

Speakers

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      Transcript

      ERIC POSEY: So welcome to Providing VDC Training to Journeymen and Apprentices. The three of us up here on stage presenting are all with the United Association. The United Association is the plumbers, pipefitters, sprinkler fitters union. We'll get more into what that is and what we do here momentarily.

      But I just want to introduce myself, Eric Posey. And then here, we have Ken Schneider and Stephan Schnell. We'll do a more thorough introduction here in a moment. So the principle of this class is how do we take construction workers and mold them in to VDC detailers? We're facing problems in the industry of not only construction shortages of manpower, but also people capable of producing constructable models. So we're going to talk a little bit today about how we're addressing that issue, and kind of the past training we've offered, future training, and everything in between in how we can address this problem, and hopefully, help the industry.

      KEN SCHNEIDER: So a little bit about the speakers. So as mentioned, my name is Ken Schneider. I'm a Training Specialist with the United Association Education Training Department. I've been here in this role for about seven years now. So I'm so fortunate to be surrounded by such great people, such knowledgeable people in the industry. So that's huge for me. Stephan?

      STEPHAN SCHNELL: Good morning, everybody. My name is Stephan Schnell. I'm Based out of the Bay Area, San Mateo County specifically. I run a mid-size training center for the association. We have about 250 apprentices. And we serve about 1,100 working members. And so been in that role for three and 1/2 years.

      ERIC POSEY: Again, my name is Eric Posey. I am an instructor for the UA. I teach nationally across the country, a lot of regional events up at our instructor training program. My day job, I own a BIM services company that's union signatory.

      We're signatory to the sheet metal union and the UA. And we pull all of our manpower from there. So our models, we can believe they're constructable. Also, heavily involved in the training, and went through the ranks of the UA as a trainee, apprentice, journeyman, and then got into instructing after I topped out my apprenticeship. So that's kind of a little brief history of me. And then as far as the UA goes, this is our fifth year at AU, I think.

      KEN SCHNEIDER: So 2016 was our first year here. 2015, actually, we were here with a camera crew.

      ERIC POSEY: Yeah, yeah. So we've got a good history of participation at AU. It's something we've been passionate about and believe in. But a little bit about the UA and who we are, it's an old organization. We've been around for 133 years, since 1889.

      We've grown to 360,000 members across the US, Canada. That's also Australia and Ireland. We have some affiliation agreements. So we do some international training as well.

      And then that's comprised-- the UA is a big entity. We piece that into local union, so each region of the country. Some states have four or five unions, some states, the whole state is the union. So we have 274 of those across the country. And again, we have four countries represented between Australia, Ireland, the US, and Canada.

      KEN SCHNEIDER: Yeah, and just to be clear, on the membership, the membership really involves US and Canada. Even though we have the affiliation agreements, we don't count those members.

      ERIC POSEY: Yeah, so a little bit about what we do beyond just saying plumbing, pipefitting, HVAC, we provide a product. We provide labor. We provide labor to contractors.

      And our goal, our biggest goal with labor is to provide qualified highly trained labor. So we invest a lot of money into training. Every four years, we spend over $1 billion in training ourselves, making ourselves better.

      KEN SCHNEIDER: Yeah, and we're pretty well self-sufficient on that, right? So we put all that money into our training fund ourselves. That's through our members, through our contractors, our partner contractors out there. So without them, this wouldn't be possible.

      ERIC POSEY: Yeah, so that money, it's going towards apprenticeship programs, specialized processes, certifications. You train a welder, how do you make that welder-- how do you set a benchmark for that welder? You have a certification program. So not only are you are you training them how to weld, you're setting the bar so when a contractor hires that member, they know exactly what they're going to get, what the minimum skill level is. And we train to that degree.

      Locals across the country are also affiliated with local community colleges to where the students can get college degrees. So you're not completely circumventing a traditional college program, you're still getting a college degree. You're learning a trade. You're learning a skill.

      So I thought this was interesting. In 1936, the UA's joint apprenticeship program was the first recognized by the United States Department of Labor. So kind of the reason why we do all this, we make sure that our members have great wages, benefits, we want everybody to be able to retire with a good pension, have good health care for them and their families, and just provide great work opportunities for our members.

      Some of the industries we serve, commercial and institutional, you can see them all up there on the screen. We're heavily involved in every industry that construction exists in. So you know, fire protection, plumbing, pipefitting, HVAC service are the main. We do pipelining, big industrial plants, nuclear power plants. You name it, we can do it.

      And then we can't do all that without our industry partnership. So we work heavily with the entities you see on the screen there. We have the MCA. So they make up the mechanical contractors, the mechanical service contractors, the plumbing contractors. And then we have the National Fire Sprinkler Association, PHCC, the building trades unions. So they're all heavily invested in our training. And our goal is to provide these entities qualified labor.

      So kind of breaking into the VDC realm, you know, why are we here at Autodesk University? And what are we trying to do? So the big thing is there's a shortage of skilled construction workers across the country.

      There's so many large projects coming up. You know, Intel alone, you know, I think in Columbus, Ohio is investing like $20 billion just in that one facility. And you talk about the manpower required to man a project like that, and how do you do it? You have to do it through training. That's the only way to build a building.

      That's a highly technical building. You're talking semiconductor chip plant. That's a lot of work, a lot of pipe goes into that. So we have to think about how we train.

      But the reason there's such a skilled labor shortage is the baby boomers are exiting the workforce, so we're losing a lot of people at one time. The population continues to grow in the United States. So you know, that means more infrastructure, more buildings are needed, more schools, hospitals, you name it, it's needed.

      Some estimates, kind of averaging some online estimates, most people are projecting about 2.2 million new construction workers are needed in the next few years. So that's not counting an existing workforce. That's new members that need to be trained. So that's a big, big hump to get over. And we're going to continue investing in our training to help the industry get there.

      On top of the industry challenges, there's also a shortage of people qualified to do virtual design and construction. So on top of just the manpower shortages, we have that as well. And then you have high schools are a bit of a challenge, because they tend to push all their students towards traditional college paths. They kind of ignore that the vocational school path is relevant.

      In fact, it offers the best wages. Most of our programs have no cost. You know, it's all paid by your membership. So really, you come out, no college debt, college degree, and make great wages doing it.

      KEN SCHNEIDER: Yeah, you actually earn while you learn. So I think that's a huge benefit. How many people in here have never heard of an apprenticeship program? Just curious. Everybody has then. That's good. It's always good to know your audience, right?

      ERIC POSEY: Yeah. So VDC-specific challenges, we have engineers. They tend to build design intent models, not necessarily constructable models. And the image you see on the screen, that's a model from last week. You know, that's what we got from the engineer.

      All the pipe is intermingled with the duct and the beams. And you inherit a model with thousands of clashes that typically is not ready for construction. Nothing is per code. But the goal with most engineering firms is to get that model on paper so a contractor can bid it. And then the contractor comes in in the design process, and they try to untangle the web. They try to build it with real fittings at a high level of detail and make that model constructable.

      AUDIENCE: It's totally coordinated though, right?

      ERIC POSEY: That's what they tell us. This is the best model we've ever put out. So another specific challenge is contractors are often picked very late in the construction process. It's very common for a contractor to bid a job and say, we're starting BIM this week.

      So it's very challenging to project your labor and say, OK, we have five detailers in our department who are all probably pretty busy based on the industry. And now, we just got a new job, and now we need three more. That's a tough challenge. And where do you get the three more? You put on a job posting on LinkedIn, or something like that. And everybody else is looking for the three detailers too.

      So that's a problem. Contractors are inheriting the bad models, like we said, with thousands of clashes. We have project schedules. Everybody wants their buildings quicker, faster for the same money, you know, no laydown areas. Like, the logistics are tough. You just don't have the time to source the qualified manpower that you need to tackle that job.

      And then the other thing is like many workers that get thrown into VDC, a lot of people have a community college. They took a CAD course. A lot of people have never touched a tool, or worked on a construction site, or understand what goes into working on a construction site. And a lot of people are just coming into the BIM process and trying to untangle the mess you see there, but not knowing the local codes, best building practices, and things like that.

      So the UA solution is training. That's what we do. That's what we do best. We invest a lot of money in that. So kind of our goal, our solution, and we'll get more into how we're going to do it later, but the MEPF mechanical, electrical, plumbing, fire protection, we want to teach best practices.

      And we don't run electrical. That's the electrician scope of work. But we need to be knowledgeable about all the other trades. We need to know what they're capable of so we can watch [? docs ?] and models, and make sure that somebody is not doing something that's illegal, and illegal in the sense that it's not per code, or a best practice, and watch those models so if they have to shift for some reason because they made a mistake, it doesn't cause us rework also.

      KEN SCHNEIDER: Yeah, and we also need to know more about the sheet metal, because we need to let them understand how they need to move their sheet metal out of our way.

      AUDIENCE: [LAUGHING]

      ERIC POSEY: It sounds like we've got sheet metal designer over here.

      AUDIENCE: Well, you [? all need to ?] understand conduit racks take up a lot of space too. Electrical usually gets the short end of the stick.

      ERIC POSEY: Everybody comes in the first meeting saying they're the most important trade, and everybody needs to move [? into ?] them. So how to build efficient and lean, like, how do you minimize waste? How do you save your contractor money?

      So many times, and especially in my world of offering BIM services, it's like a lot of BIM service providers come in because the contractor doesn't have the manpower to do the project, and they come in, and they're only worried about clash free model. So my goal is zero clashes, and maybe leave a few hidden flex duct or whatever.

      But a lot of times, we're not thinking about building that model lean. How do we take out the little piece of pipe that ended up in between the 90 and the T that made two welds instead of one, you know? That's all trade knowledge that sometimes you have to do that, and you get into situations where that's needed. But you need to understand what you're drawing in a way that you can alleviate that stuff. How do you QA, QC your own model and build it in an efficient way?

      Fabrication and DfMA, that's all the talk of the industry. We have these tight schedules. How do we build in a way that we can modularize the building, combine racks together with other trades. How do we prefab, make spools, deliver that material on site in a way that it's very minimal what you have to do on site?

      Because any time we can build in a controlled space like a fabrication shop, we have our tools there. There's not as much startup and shut down time every day. It's a safer environment, controlled conditions. There's just a lot more efficiency in a fabrication shop than there is on a construction site.

      The other thing too is allow VDC manpower ample time on real construction sites. So our solution is expose detailers to the actual construction installation, so they understand what it's like to get there, make those connections, don't leave a weld two inches from a wall, because that's very difficult to get there. And it's things like that that you have to think about as you model to make a more constructable model. I feel like I'm not letting you talk at all.

      STEPHAN SCHNELL: I just wanted to go back a step. And so our apprenticeship programs are five years in length. And we have about 8,000 hours of on-the-job training, and about a 1,000 to 1,200 hours of actual classroom instruction and lab instruction. I just wanted to touch on that for people who aren't familiar with the apprenticeship programs.

      ERIC POSEY: Yeah. Yeah, so our other solution-- you know, we're talking about how to build at the top. Our other solution is, what are the tools needed to do that? So that's where we're really diving deep into our training.

      We start with design software. Industry standard has become Revit. And that's kind of cool like coming to AU since 2016, everybody was still in AutoCAD, and you know, Revit was kind of out there. But you know, that's for the engineers, and AutoCAD is for us who use fabrication and things like that.

      But now, we've kind of made the statement, Revit is our design platform that we're going to train on. It's gotten really good with the fabrication parts added into it to be able to make constructable models. How do you coordinate?

      So we're teaching coordination software like Navisworks, Autodesk Construction Cloud. So I don't know if they changed the name this year, but BIM 360 Autodesk Construction Cloud, you know, we're still juggling the terminology there. But I have half my projects on ACC.Autodesk, and have Home B360.Autodesk. But that's one of those things it's like, we got to keep where the industry is going, and keep our training dollars there.

      Reality Capture, it used to be we only did BIM coordination on existing project, or on new projects. And with the way laser scanners are so easy to use now, we're teaching Reality Capture workflows, how to leverage that point cloud. We've implemented those workflows into our textbooks, so really teaching that workflow too. Mobile technology, how do you leverage a mobile device on a jobsite? How do you leverage the model on a jobsite for an apprentice, journeyman, foreman?

      And then jobsite technology, like robotic total stations, how you take that model and lay it out properly on the job sites? So we're eyeing that. We're eyeing augmented reality to be able to put on a headset and view that model on the job, and quality check our installations too.

      So a little bit about how we've trained in the past, and how we've migrated to where we are today, and then where we're going with it in the future. So didn't want to--

      KEN SCHNEIDER: Yeah, so a little bit of our history of what we taught. So since 1990, we've been teaching CAD. Obviously, we've moved forward from that, right? And then from '94 to '97, we started to introduce 3D CAD. From there, we went to BIM VDC in '98, introduced different courses along the way. And I think we even have a little bit of a list of courses here that we're going to show.

      And then starting with 2016 is when we really kicked in to Revit, and really started pushing. And we've been pushing in multiple ways, right? So we're not just teaching just a general Revit class. We also know that we've got to get our apprentices kind of molded into that attitude I'll say, of everything needing to be 3D.

      And let's face it, the younger generation, they live in 3D. So bringing them into a 2D environment is uncomfortable for them. So if we do it in 3D, it makes a lot more sense. So we've actually even taken one of our classes, which we'll mention, and we did a scan to BIM project, right? So we have a training center that we bring everybody up to nationally at Washtenaw Community College in Ann Arbor.

      And we took that project, and we created an advanced plan reading book out of it. So like I said, it was a scan to BIM project. And I'll say, it's still a work in progress, because it's always going to be a work in progress staying up-to-date.

      ERIC POSEY: So present day, you know, that's a little history of what we've taught. Present day, this is a list of classes taught at the national level. So it starts with basic how do you read drawings, how do you interpret the drawings, how do you deduct what your scope of work is off those drawings. So that's kind of the base level is just teaching the drawings.

      But we splash technology in even at that level. We're introducing Bluebeam. We're introducing Autodesk Docs. We're getting people familiar with the tools they're going to use on the job site.

      STEPHAN SCHNELL: Yeah, I'll jump in there. I think we do a really good job of making sure when we think about VDC, we think about a model. We do a really good job of making sure that models stay siloed, that we get the information to the fab shops, to the people installing the pipe, and making sure everyone's doing that efficient. So we focus heavily on that as well.

      ERIC POSEY: Thank you. So we kind of kicked from there into advanced plan reading. And again, these are all training the trainer courses. So Ken Spoke on Washtenaw, and our instructor trainer program. So everybody comes up to Washtenaw, over 2,000 instructors this year, I believe. They all fly into Ann Arbor.

      And then you have some of the best in the industry teaching these other instructors how to go back to those 274 locals we discussed, and train these in their program, give them curriculum, and tools. And you intermingle with other instructors that are teaching the same subjects you are. You get ideas off them, and everybody kind of creates their own projects at their own locals, and you share those. And it creates this like awesome network of great training. So it's a really cool event.

      So Advanced Plan Reading, that book was just redone, tons of technology and BIM dumped into it. So as they're learning how to read plans, they're also learning how those plans apply to BIM, and how you can leverage the models on those same plans. In 2016, we added Autodesk Revit MEP. 2017, we added Advanced Revit MEP.

      Robotic Total Station Layout, we've been teaching that for several years. It's Topcon, Sokkia specific, Leica specific, Trimble specific. So depending on the type of robot you're using, they all use different data collectors. They all use different software. So we teach all those workflows.

      And then now, there's an Advanced Robotic Total Station training as well. So how do you do some of the more advanced workflows other than just maybe lay out basic points? So utilizing job site technology, that one's been personal to me. You know, that was the first class I ever taught at the National level. And that's how I met Stephan. He took over that class as well.

      Mobile technology, how do you leverage that iPad on the job site? How do you teach a apprentice journeyman how to use that as a tool, not just as a toy? Understanding the BIM VDC Workflow in Today's Construction industry, longest title of any course that the UA offers. That's the one I teach today up in Ann Arbor.

      That's a very entry level how do you come in and just learn technology? We had all these very technical specific courses for all the technology you see on the board. But how do you bring all that into one package, and talk about terminology, and just help somebody that might not work on a BIM job understand what it is, and what tools are capable of being used on a construction.

      STEPHAN SCHNELL: Yeah, the goal of that class was to give someone a basic roadmap of how to implement technology at their training center, because your compass are your contractors that you serve. For instance, I have 150 different signatory contractors that I got to provide labor to. And you know, depending on what the project is, you can provide certain training.

      I'm thinking about the Robotic Total Station, right? So we have projects that need training on that. We send people to Ann Arbor to take that class. They come back with the understanding out of by that tool, understand how to use it, understand how to teach it, and have curriculum to teach it on. So we can spin that class up in a matter of a couple of months. And I think that's really important that we give our membership the tools to do that.

      ERIC POSEY: One of our newer courses is DfMA and Modular Construction. So we've actually got a booth here at AU down the Expo Hall. I will show where it's at on the map later. But we have our DfMA modular construction trailer downstairs in the Expo Hall. So we've got a couple of members that teach that class. They're here as well working the trailer all about how do you take a model, fabricate it, prepare it to modularize, and bring it on to the job site in chunks, and piece those chunks together.

      So we've got things like the Tiger Stop down there. You can drive straight from the model onto the Tiger Stop machine and cut your pipe, cut your unit [? straight, ?] cut your rod. So we're teaching those workflows as well. So that's most, but not all the technology courses offered in instructor training program.

      We also teach regional courses. You know, that, event is one time of year. All year long we're teaching these other courses you see on the right hand side. So laser scanning, we go different stops. I think one of those courses actually scanned like a US destroyer ship, or something like that.

      KEN SCHNEIDER: The USS Intrepid. So we were part of a project where FARO was scanning the USS Intrepid. So I just say, that was a fun project, really fun project.

      ERIC POSEY: So we get them around the country in different spots, so it's not too far to travel for too many people. We teach mobile technology. And then we teach online courses. So there's still some locals that want to train their manpower on VDC, but maybe they don't have an instructor yet, or something like that. So they can sign their students up for our online Revit courses.

      So we teach two levels of that. Revit Core is kind of an intro to intermediate course. And then the Revit Piping is like the intermediate to advanced course. Utilizing Revit for UA Training, we've been running that course for a few years. It's wildly successful. How do you use Revit as a tool for training, not just as a coordination tool for BIM processes, but how can you use Revit to design projects for your training center, because we have a lot of hands-on projects that we do too.

      So sometimes, we have to teach an apprentice to measure and pipe from point A to point B. And how do we instead of making a hand sketch and handing that to the apprentice to build, how do we actually leverage Revit to do that same thing? So that's a fun course.

      And then of course, DfMA and Modular Construction again. And then we do offer some SysQue training regionally as well. And then even beyond that, each of those 274 locals, a lot of those have developed their own specific training curriculum like, beyond these classes for BIM and VDC. So a little bit more about what our plans are for the future training.

      KEN SCHNEIDER: So one of the things that we've been working on over the last couple of years, and as you can imagine, we got a little slowed down from the pandemic because that prevented us from meeting as much, but we started to work on updating our apprenticeship standards. And one of the standards that we're adding, and we hope to get it completed this year, is a mechanical drafter. Obviously, with adding a new I'll say, role for UA members, is a mechanical drafter. We're also updating all our other standards as well.

      So one of the goals of it was to make sure that we incorporated construction technology into every single craft that we do, whether it's plumbing, pipefitting, sprinkler fitting, HVAC tech, welding. We want to make sure that we're introducing construction technology to everyone. It's so important that we normalize construction technology, so everybody isn't so afraid of it.

      In fact, we can use and leverage that just like Eric was talking about, with the utilizing Revit for UA training. We can use it as a training tool. And we do. So it's all good stuff there. Stephan was on the committee as well. So I'm going to let him put his two cents in on how the committee developed.

      STEPHAN SCHNELL: Yeah, so the goal of mechanical drafter is to have someone that's ready to work in the pre-construction during construction design, and making sure that that path is available in every apprenticeship program. So today, when you go into a plumbing apprenticeship program, or a pipefitting, there is a dedicated roadmap, right? So now, we develop a dedicated road map for mechanical drafter to making sure they have the tools that they need to succeed in their craft.

      It's pretty simple. We put a lot of energy into it. And we're looking forward to getting that done sometime soon. It goes through the Department of Labor, gets recognized by the Department of Labor, and they actually formalize the classification.

      KEN SCHNEIDER: Yeah, so really, the committee's works done with it. And now, that's what it's doing. It's going through the process with the Department of Labor. So we're hopeful that we'll have that completed before the end of the year. So it's good stuff.

      And one of the things we did-- and once again, Stephan was on this construction technology committee-- is they actually went around to each group. We had a group for plumbers, a group for sprinkler fitters, a group for pipefitters, welders, et cetera, and they went around to make sure that they were implementing construction technology into every single craft. So important for us.

      And then our next piece of the puzzle is creating a certification. So we've been trying to push for Autodesk to do the certification. And I'm just being who I am, and I'm honest. And we never got there for our crafts, right? So we're going to do our own certification. It'll be a UA cert. We're going to work with our industry members, the MCAA, et cetera. And I think it's going to be a win for everyone.

      And what the goal is of this certification is not just to say, I can do it. It's to show the contractors at the end of the day when they have this certification, they're productive on day one. And that's so, so important. Eric, you want to join in there?

      ERIC POSEY: Yeah, so yeah, that really alleviates that problem of I just had a project. Where do I get the manpower, or the qualified manpower to man this project, and coordinate my model? It's so hard right now for everybody to find a qualified person. We're going to continue with this new apprenticeship program coming out. You know, that's going to set the bar for what somebody is capable out of the gate, and set that benchmark we need.

      So a little bit about our program here. I'm not going to read these slides. They're very wordy, but we've got some of these members here at Autodesk University. They wrote an article here. The text is on there. The PowerPoint is available to you. After the class is over, you'll be able to go on the Autodesk app, and download this, and read about these three members.

      But this is about how these members retooled themselves to become detailers. They came through the ranks as plumbers and pipefitters, and they learned technology tools, and they're successful at what they do. And they wrote a nice article on the three members that did that. There's also a QR code at the end if you want more info on the UA, or how to join maybe not you personally, if you don't want to join, but maybe somebody would be a good career path for, that's definitely a good path to follow.

      KEN SCHNEIDER: Yeah, and just to be clear, this isn't an article that we wrote. We did get our eyes on it, because of course, we were going to get our eyes on it, but this was written by 4D Technologies. Autodesk did a similar story a few years back, and Eric's being a little bit humble. And it was actually on Eric. So I call it the Eric Posey story.

      AUDIENCE: [LAUGHING]

      KEN SCHNEIDER: But you can find it on Autodesk website as well.

      ERIC POSEY: Yeah, thank you. So up on the screen right now is a map to where our booth is up. Were all the way over next to the Autodesk store. You'll see a big blue construction trailer. You can't miss it. So make sure you stop by.

      And if you want to see some of these tools, like the Tiger Stop, or a Matterport Scanner, or a FARO Scanner, we've got them all right there in the booth. We can explain to you how they work. We've got some cool visuals up on screens. So if you want to learn more about any of these workflows, we're happy to explain them to you, and kind of guide them through you. So anything to add before we go to Q&A?

      STEPHAN SCHNELL: Yeah, I'm hopeful that we kind of covered everything we want to, but we do want some questions from the audience, because you may have come in here with different expectations. And we want to make sure that we cover your questions.

      AUDIENCE: I notice you don't have eVolve. [INAUDIBLE] SysQue. Does it mean that you believe that that's the right way to go?

      STEPHAN SCHNELL: So the question was, we didn't show eVolve We do have SysQue shown.

      ERIC POSEY: Oh, no, not necessarily. We try not to show favoritism to certain products. SysQue actually comes in and assists in teaching those courses. But we do teach eVolve. We teach [? spectalic ?] tools for Revit, all the popular fabrication workflows, because we don't know what the contractor is going to use. Yeah, so we have to be somewhat brand agnostic to what we train on, so that that member can go in and use eVolve or SysQue, or Fabrication Parts, or VicTools. There's so many of them. And there's way more than that.

      KEN SCHNEIDER: Yeah, so we do have a learning management system. And on there, there's all kinds of different add-ons to Revit that are available to UA members, whether it's SysQue, eVolve-- I'm going to not think of something right now, I know.

      ERIC POSEY: There's a bunch of them.

      KEN SCHNEIDER: Yeah, there's a bunch of them. So all those are listed, and they can actually go in there click a button, and then they can request the license. It's an automatic email that goes out to the vendors. I'm included in on it, just so I can follow up and make sure that we haven't missed somebody. So I think that's very important.

      But so that just happened to be one of the regional trainings that we've done. When we were doing our Utilizing for Revit training, what we call the VDC tour, we also had workshops, so we had Victaulic involved in that. We had eVolve involved in it. We had-- can't think of the other two, just drew a blank. Yeah, SysQue actually wasn't involved in it. eVolve was involved in it, yes.

      AUDIENCE: Well, I'll already said this to you guys, but I thought maybe I would say it in from of everybody. I'm a sheet metal worker, OK, detailer. The reason that I'm here just because it's like I go BIM, I hope that you guys can fight to get your contracted work-- to get this to be your contracted work again, because I'll tell you what, be a sheet metal detailer and working and with these CAD kids, they're trying to do your work. they don't know-- they wouldn't know a piece of pipe if they tripped over it.

      It makes so much difference when I worked with a mechanic. The guy that I've worked with for years is very busy. He's kind of in the Bay Area. You your journeyman to be detailers. All your detailers should be journeyman. So I just wanted to let you know that that's the way we feel. We're on your side.

      STEPHAN SCHNELL: Yeah, thank you for that comment. My thoughts on that are historically, and we've talked about the '90s, and the early 2000's, we had engineering teams try to dabble into designing systems to be installed. And you would get those products that weren't really buildable, but would pass through the sniff test for attempting to provide a 3D building. I think we had a question over there.

      AUDIENCE: I'm wondering if the UA provides training for contractors, because you can have contractors that don't really know what they're doing, and they're not sure-- you're providing people that are going to be trained, but they're trying to get people and just throw into a BIM job with no supervision or anything like that, and it's going to be a problem.

      STEPHAN SCHNELL: Yeah, we do provide-- I'll talk about myself in my local level. I have 130 contractors that are signatory. And we work closely with them to figure out all sorts of training, not just VDC, but figure out what's coming up, and how to provide training for that. And what you're mentioning is a common theme with contractors. They're really good at getting jobs. They're really good at starting up those projects. But actually to man it, and to do the work is where they lean heavily on us for that training.

      ERIC POSEY: The apprenticeship programs are joint ventures between the contractors and the local union. So you know, every one of those apprenticeship programs has a joint committee that governs that. And we try to do a good job of pulling in our contractors, finding out what software they use, what's the common total station in my area, because that might be different than in Stephan's area.

      So we might teach Trimble in my local, but you know, he might see more value in teaching Leica, because that's what most of his contractors use, or maybe both. There's no universal one stop solution. It's very regional and specific. And it is all about working with your contractors to make sure you address those issues.

      AUDIENCE: So I've been working as a VDC and BIM engineer throughout my caree in New York basically. But I noticed that one thing about East Coast, West Coast difference is they all like East Coast, New York, Philly, New Jersey, that area, they mostly still work with CAD and the third party software within CAD. How do you see that trend on the West Coast coming to the East Coast?

      I think there's still some skill gap, but it's not just because of the skill gap. It's because of the CAD standard. It's because of the fabrication of sequencing of the company that that they, that they haven't translated that CAD based software to a Revit based software. How do you see that [? coming down the line? ?]

      KEN SCHNEIDER: So obviously, we all hate change, right? Yeah. So is, it is an uphill battle to get people to switch over. So that's why we've really started pushing on Revit training, get people trained for those positions. And here's the thing, for us-- and this was told to me a long time ago-- it's easier to take a tradesperson and teach him the computer than take a computer person and teach him to trade.

      And every single day I wake up thinking about that thought, and how we can get more people trained on our end who already know all about these systems. They know how to install pipe on the physical job site, right? And all we're doing is training them how to do that on the digital job site. And if we can do that, and that's just learning the software, then I think we're going to be a success story.

      AUDIENCE: So you guys are doing a good job sounds like pushing this through your actual your apprenticeship in schools. What incentives, or what level of participation are you getting out of current journeyman members that are not involved in that program?

      STEPHAN SCHNELL: I'll speak for my area. We have a waiting list in our Revit class right now. It's tough, because it's hard to incentivize journeymen to come back. But we have an abundance of work in our area. So no one's unemployed, fortunately.

      But we do, we do get it. And what happens is, I offer a path in my apprenticeship program to take technology classes, Revit classes, and so forth. And we're getting about 50% of the apprentices will go through a technology route. So we're not satisfied, but there's we're definitely getting participation in technology classes. And there's people in there with gray hair too. The fact is you're going to be probably working into your late 50s or early 60s in the construction trades. And so this is a good alternative path to finish out your career.

      KEN SCHNEIDER: Yeah, we've had a lot of schools where they started a Revit program up, and they would only get two or three students to sign up. And at some point in time you got to say, is that cost effective? Well sometimes, you have to look past the cost. What is the cost by not training them, right?

      So no matter how big the class is, they were starting to run classes. And the success story is they left that class so excited that they did word of mouth. And when you get word of mouth from somebody who took a class, it's huge.

      ERIC POSEY: We battled the problem. And I get a lot of questions from members that come to the national trainings. It's I'm already swamped. We have a five year program established. We have standards.

      How do I just like add another class? How do I add a Revit class? How do I add a Navisworks class? And it's like, the answer is like, yeah, you can add a special add on class, an elective class that people can sign up for. But you got to weave it in through the fabric of your apprenticeship.

      It's got to be looked at as a tool, just like a pipe wrench, or a hammer. Like, you've got to weave in iPads. You've got to use them throughout the apprenticeship, so when an apprentice turns out that apprenticeship, it's just natural for them to use that tool on the job. And I think as long as we've been doing it, and we tweak it every year to keep up with industry standards, but as long as we've been doing it, we're starting to get a base of our huge chunk of our membership is savvy on iPads, and technology, and knows how to leverage that on job site.

      And even if they don't become detailers, we know that that's kind of a niche of our overall trade. It's not our bread and butter, what we do. But it's a very important part of what we do. And a good design goes a long way with what we do. But we're not trying to make everyone a detailer, but we want them to know that if they're on a job site and somebody says they can't give them that dimension, or that elevation, that you can call BS on it. And you know what BIM is capable, and you know how to speak intelligently about it.

      STEPHAN SCHNELL: Any other questions?

      AUDIENCE: No, I already did one.

      STEPHAN SCHNELL: What about you, ma'am?

      AUDIENCE: I was wondering how long you're finding it takes before the person that you're training in Revit to be base level competent.

      STEPHAN SCHNELL: I love that question. So we have people talking about 300 hours of training. We have people talking about 40 hours of training. And honestly, where I landed for teaching it for years and years was, what's this sweet spot that get them hireable? I know when I was trained for-- I was probably at 100 hours of training, and I learned more in the first week working for a contractor than I did in my training.

      So if you ask me, I would say 40 to 60 hours of training. But I mean, you can go hundreds of hours if you want to peel back the onions of Revit, and the onion layers. Thoughts from you guys?

      ERIC POSEY: Yeah, I just think if you look at Revit, you know, that's one tool. Can you make somebody a VDC expert in 40 or 60 hours? No. But can you make them employable? I think that's very realistic.

      Our program is somewhere around like the 75 to 80 hour mark. But like Stephan said, the first week they spend with a contractor detailing, they already hit 40 hours. So it's like that real life experience is really what you need, and what the apprenticeship program is all about.

      It's meant to supplement what you're doing at work, and teach you the proper way to use the tools. And then you go in and you apply those on the job. So that part can't happen without our contractor partners like being willing to pull these members into seats and training them. But yeah, with Revit, you know, that 60 hour mark is probably about right there to get them polished up.

      But you don't have to worry about making-- not every Revit detailer needs don't know how to make view templates, and visibility graphics, settings, and things like that. You need people that model, and coordinate, and do those things too. So if you focus on certain tasks, it's easier to get them through the training they need.

      KEN SCHNEIDER: Yes, sir.

      AUDIENCE: Yeah, I just wanted to comment that in our local we actually subsidize the training of some of our BIM detailers. So we have money set aside to help contractors offset some of the costs of training. I'm not sure how common that is, but [INAUDIBLE].

      KEN SCHNEIDER: I think Eric can talk on that a little bit.

      ERIC POSEY: We do the same thing. Like, our local union gives the contractor $10 an hour off that employee's wages to-- the employee doesn't lose $10 an hour. But they help offset that learning on the job experience you need, because contractors shouldn't have the burden of training somebody on BIM. We should be able to provide them a turnkey solution. So that's our way of incentivizing contractors to get that training for that member that they need, and use them on the job site.

      KEN SCHNEIDER: Yeah, it's one of the things that I tell our contractors. If you got a vendor, or a software vendor coming knocking on your door wanting to sell you software, ask them if they've been to the local training center lately, because they should go there first, and let us train them on what they're going to earn on. I believe we earn on what we learn on. Yes.

      AUDIENCE: [INAUDIBLE] One of the things in our area that we see is [? G ?] middle unions in their contracts, it says in there that in order to design their sheet metal you need to be a union member. And it's in their contract. But in our contract, you don't have to be in order to do CAD or BIM design [INAUDIBLE]. So do you see that with this new program that you're-- [INAUDIBLE] it starts with putting back into the contract, or at least trying to?

      KEN SCHNEIDER: Yeah, so once again, I come from the education and training department. So that's another industry, we'll say another door that we have to walk through to get that. But that's really going to be based on every single individual local to make those decisions, and have an agreement in place with their signatory contractors.

      STEPHAN SCHNELL: On that comment, it's a good comment. My opinion is, if you can't supply the demand, you shouldn't claim the work right away. And first, train your members, and then consider attempting to claim that type of work. I think we have time for one more question.

      AUDIENCE: I just want to make a comment on that. There's also the option of adding to your contract another classification of workers, [INAUDIBLE] the touch tools, and maybe doesn't receive the same pension, or the same 401(k). So I'm from 469. We've got a VDC classification.

      We can hire a guy out of a ITT Tech, or Devry to get paid half the wage of a journeyman. And we pretty much only have them do 2D work, putting dimensions on drawings that our skilled journeymen and apprentices that are modeling and coordinating, and spend their time doing that rather than spending their time on the menial tasks. So if you were to add back into your contract, it might be something where you could add another classification of worker to do that kind of work.

      STEPHAN SCHNELL: Got it. You had a question?

      AUDIENCE: I just had a question. Have you seen what you're doing crossing over into other unions, like my contractors for the IBEW, this is not part of our apprenticeship. Although, as a contractor, we've realized the value in bringing in the field in the office. But a lot of those guys, they don't want to go sit at desks. They don't want to give up their trade.

      We have five people that were general [? public ?] for us, that I have trained Revit, and taught them to be VDC personnel. But it's incredibly challenging to find the people to give up what they're doing in the field, and come into the office. And then at that, they've been doing their work for 25 years, now you want me to come sit at desk?

      It's also hard to get them to understand that things that they know they would just do out in the field that didn't matter, well, why do I have to model this? They will figure it out in the field. So that's kind of a mentality that I struggle with most, because we need to fab it. We need a drawing. They don't see what you're seeing in this model. So first question, how common are you seeing that IBEWs looking to adopt something like this? And then what do you do those [? things ?] foreman who were running work for 25 years to get them to understand everything's got to be modeled, everything's got to be on that drawing, because yeah, you know you want to just [? ran ?] out in the field, but the next guy might not know that.

      STEPHAN SCHNELL: I know electrical carries a lot. I think they're a little bit further behind. But on the national level, they put energy into it. And then for [? NICA, ?] they have a technology group that focuses on that as well. Ken, do you have anything to add to that?

      KEN SCHNEIDER: Yeah, and I'm going to say thank you for your question. I don't know what all the other trades are doing. But I do know that everybody is looking at it. And from a national level, just as Stephan said, they're certainly looking at it. And then moving it down to the locals, it's tough. And I can speak very fluently about that, because I've been pushing for a long time. 274 locals, and we have something like 105, 107 who are currently in the Autodesk skilled trades program.

      So it's hard to push everybody, and provide them all the means to do the training as well. We have a grant program. So we grant computers. We grant software. We're just starting to grant iPads. So that was just really kind of announced to our construction technology committee yesterday. So it is a hard push.

      For the contractors, they need to push to their local JTOCs, whoever sits on those boards, they need to push that. I mean, that's the only way we're going to move, is move together, right?

      AUDIENCE: Yeah, my owner-- we've been around since 1924. My owner is on the board oof JTOC. He is on the board for [? NICA. ?] He's the board for IPEW nationally. So he's right on board with it. And we've been talking about starting our own. I think, we might go six locals across California, our own programs, just getting it going. We train our own people.

      But it is, it's challenging to bring people on board. Before BIM was a requirement in the specs, it was like, whatever, let's check. We did a model. Now, it's becoming impossible to complete a construction project without participating in BIM and VDC, and having those drawings. If you're not on board, you're not doing the project. So it's just kind of the old school mentality.

      I mean, I've worked with this contractor for 17 years. We didn't model when I started working for them. I just had the experience from my previous employer. But now, it's like, where's my work model? Where's my drawings? They're starting to rely on it a lot more.

      But we need those skilled field people to come in and teach everyone else what's going on. And so it's a big challenge. And I'm glad you guys are doing this, because like you said, electrical is behind, [? electrical ?] model, because why do we need to, and now we need to? So hopefully, the IBEW will really jump on board and start doing this too.

      KEN SCHNEIDER: Yeah, and you know, I do have some communications with them, probably more on the [? NICA ?] right now. We'd love to have more communication with IBEW as well.

      ERIC POSEY: I'm on the same board as a BIM services provider. I would love to hire a IBEW member to do our electrical drawings. But our local union, and our area in Indianapolis just doesn't even acknowledge 3D coordination, or BIM, you know. I hope they do at some point. And I'll offer to help them get off the ground with that. But yeah, we really need all the building trades to participate, and learn how to do this.

      KEN SCHNEIDER: Yeah, and I think we're out of time. But I do appreciate all the questions. I'll stick around until they kick us out, right? If you have any questions, I'll have cards up here, et cetera. So thank you again.

      [APPLAUSE]