Revit: The Hub for Structural Engineering in a Collaborative Environment

PRESENTER: Oh, no. No, it's better. So Thomas is CEO and founder of SOFiSTiK. SOFiSTiK is a company. We are making software for structural engineers-- software for analysis and design in structural engineering.

And, yeah, I know Thomas since 2006 when I joined the company and he was always the one in the company who forced us to push more into Revit. So even in these times in 2006, when Revit was at the beginning, so to say-- but Thomas was the one who pushed us into this direction. And I think we would not stand here if he wouldn't pushed us so hard, so to say. Yeah.

THOMAS FINK: Next slide, thank you. Allow me three slides about the company. What you see here-- Andreas already told what we are doing. What you see here-- this will become our new office building. We used that as example how to use BIM and I'm publishing a blog in German language.

It's not everything as golden as it should be, but it's a realistic problem and we did that simply to learn. So we had our roofing ceremony last week, so it will really become a house. And I hope it will look like this, of course, not with these finite element [INAUDIBLE] our marketing department made into that animation. Next.

What are we doing-- SOFiSTiK? our three main topics are buildings, in particular complex buildings. On the left side you see something that brought us the first gray hairs-- was where-- in the very beginning and it was really hard to model that in-- it was not hard to model it in Revit, but it was hard to get out a properly meshed system for the finite element analysis on the left.

Our key competence is bridge engineering. We have analysis for that. And maybe you have seen [? Jacob's ?] presentation yesterday. We also start introducing BIM into the analysis. This is the [INAUDIBLE] bridge-- very proud that a customer of us from Switzerland won the International competition with a very small team, and our help, and got the job for that project.

And on the left side is a sample for lightweight structures, that's also a speciality of our customers. Many of these nice looking stadiums from the architects like [INAUDIBLE] and [INAUDIBLE] GMP are designed with our software. This only as a sample, but it's something I can proud to have these customers.

Last slide from me now is our time. We have a long track record working together with Autodesk and I think it was a good decision for our company. We started in '86 with SOFiCAD, that was a reinforcement detailing application based on AutoCAD-- as far as I know, the first one. We started in '96 doing structural analysis with AutoCAD. We developed the slab-designer software that's also brought to the UK market by [INAUDIBLE] FE slab-designer in '96, so far, far ahead of everyone else.

From 2005 on, we worked on the analysis interface for Revit-- was called Interface because it was not more than an interface. These days-- 2012 we started with rebar detailing in Revit. And, finally, 2018, we published these two new apps Analysis and Design in Revit, which we will show you today and where we will explain you the ideas behind that new concept and the approach bridge modular which we had yesterday. So, Andreas, you may continue, please.

PRESENTER: Yeah, structural analysis in Revit-- before I-- want to show you what we do in Revit. I just want to say some words about structure analysis in general. So structure analysis has some realities, which might be different to mechanical engineering. One is for the geometry probably, so we always have to deal with these two kind of geometry-- the 3D solid architectural model and the analysis model, which is usually dimensionally reduced model consisting of shell or beam elements and we always have to deal with this. But Revit does, to a certain extent, this job already for us. Yeah, and we have to deal with physical geometry and also reinforcement. So we have to deal with different kind of geometry in one single model.

Another issue is we always have different analysis models when we do calculations. So there is no single analysis model which is used for any kind of analysis, there are always a multiple. So, for example, you have 3D global model for horizontal load take down, or dynamic analysis, or seismic analysis, or separated 2D floors extracted from the model to do the floor slap design, or local models like when, for example, checking a column. You might-- often these columns-- this column is being extracted from the system and calculated separately by taking second order effects into account and material non-linearity.

And, of course, we have multiple involved parties, which require communication in between. So we have from architects to detailer-- we have also within one domain collaborations between offices or third party checking engineers, which need to cooperate with. And, of course, these people are not sitting on one location, they also might sit on different locations at least for larger problems. So these are the issues we have to deal with.

But what is the traditional workflow in structural analysis? The traditional workflow, as far as we encounter, is you have the design model, which is nowadays more and more being modeled in 3D and also Revit is definitely the platform for it. But when it comes to structural analysis often just plans are being handed over to the structural engineer and they rebuilt the complete model again in their dedicated analysis software.

This is rework. And they also-- when it comes to changes, they need to revise this and it's-- making this consistent is definitely an issue. Also bringing information back can be done with, yeah-- on different ways ranging from a phone call to a direct link like we have also seen in these last days, for example, with Robert.

But [INAUDIBLE] solution, our opinion, is to bring everything together and this is exactly what Revit does. So we have in Revit the analysis model and we have the physical model in one single system. And every change in the physical model is being reflected in the change-- as a change in the analysis model. So this is the approach which we follow with our app.

So this is an application which is-- will soon also be available through the Autodesk app store, which allows us to do analysis and design of concrete structures entirely with Revit. It is clear for us that one cannot handle-- or it's not our aim to-- or to say that everything can be done with this app, but we are sure you can handle, let's say, 80% to 90% of the structures within Revit. And for the other structures you can still go for the-- with the traditional workflow, so it's not breaking anything.

Yeah, you see here three blocks within the software, which I will explain later in our live demo. Most important is that everything which is being defined is stored in the Revit database. So let's say we are extending, for example, the properties of-- the analytical properties in the Revit because they are not major enough.

For example, we are adding hinges for-- boundary hinges between walls and slabs. And also other designed code specific issues will be added by our software, but everything is being stored in the RVT. So-- which gives us the large-- the big side effect or the big benefit that we can use all these collaboration features available in Revit. And this is also something we want to show today in this presentation later.

So to highlight this or to, yeah, explain this approach or-- to the benefits of this approach, I would like to show you three workflows now-- three workflows in 3D mode. So in the first demo, I want to show you how we create multiple analysis models from a single Revit model, so 3D and 2D subsystems all managed within Revit.

In the second demo, I will show you how we group and check columns. And in the third demo, we will show how we share this information within a central model stored in BIM 360 and how we then use this information for reinforcement generation and detailing at a different location. This is the reason why you see this-- our colleague over there in this small window.

So let me start with the first demo. I switched to Revit now. So you see here our-- this office building-- our office building, which Thomas already showed you, which we modeled entirely in Revit. So we modeled the architectural model down to the desks, and the chairs, and all these items within the system.

But we also set up a calculation model or calculation model is being set up in the background with all the loads of this system. And, as already explained within these structural properties which we extended-- which we implemented to extend the properties available in Revit, we can set additional parameters like, for example, this at release conditions between walls and-- or between two surface elements. So, in this case, this at release condition here is being a hinged edge condition, for example.

There are also other parameters, like meshing parameters or parameters to control the layout and the orientation of down-stand beams within our parameters. And once we have this setup, we can do the analysis within Revit. So we can set some meshing parameters, analysis parameters, and I can start the calculation.

So once this is finished-- so we meshed in the system and calculated the load case using linear analysis. And then you see here in this viewer, the system, with the deflections. I fixed the deflections here so they are only for visualization dynamic, so in-- this is a linear elastic, so no dynamic analysis with all the load cases being seen here. And you can also see yellow-- these edge releases, which we define within Revit.

So I said-- we set up a 3D model. But, as explained, you often want to extract parts of the system to set up-- to do a local analysis. So for this-- and we do this by setting up different views. So we are using views in Revit to set two extra-- to select these elements which comprise a subsystem and use this view to trigger a different analysis.

So-- and to set up this view-- this could be done manually just by selecting elements and/or by [INAUDIBLE] the view and deselecting elements. But we implemented some auxiliary commands to extract, for example, slabs. So I can extract different slabs just by selecting the levels.

So the slabs are attached to the levels usually. And then we see a reduced system. And the command automatically detects the elements we selected-- the slabs-- and also the supporting elements-- the supporting down standing elements, which we then-- when we analyze this system now, we can replace by spring elements, so-- or by elastic or rigid supports.

So now visualizing this system is now this slab being extracted with the loads now calculated as a 2D slab model, so without 3D effects, for example, [INAUDIBLE] normal forces. And this can be used then for doing slab design, so calculating the reinforcement of these slabs. I can also just select a larger portion, so let me-- I now select, for example, the entire basement elements and have a separate view, which I can further attribute or-- and, again, useful for analysis.

And here all these views, which being generated, has a-- will be organized within this dropdown, so we can switch between the different analysis models. So let me, here, also calculate this system because now I'd like to show you how we also allow to transfer the loads.

So the idea is-- or-- is to allow the user-- allow the engineer to calculate each floor separately and transfer the forces over the walls down from one floor to the next floor. So for this-- and as we have the 3D model-- so we have the 3D model in the background and we have all the information of the connecting walls and the connecting elements. And based on this information, we can now detect which of the walls and columns are connected between the level one and this basement level and transfer then forces from the support forces calculated before down through this level

So in order-- There remains one problem, because when generating forces now, these transferred forces, in Revit, in the main model, these forces will show up in all corresponding views, because they are stored in the database. But there is-- Revit provides a means, so-called design options, where you can define a design option, in which you can define different elements. For example, you can define design option for a wall with opening, and a wall without opening. And then you can switch between these two options to derive different variants, for example.

So we are making use of these design options. And now I activated this design option, subsystem basement, and I calculate this, transferred loads. So from the subsystem in level one, we are taking the support forces and transferring them down to this level. So then I switch back to the main model, and just adjust a few, such that we see this design option now, only in this view. So we have the forces being transferred from the upper system, and this system here, and then I can send this again to analysis and do the calculation there. Which you can see here again, with all the different reflections.

ANDREAS: May I shortly summarize? So, we have the possibility to, as we know that the 3D model will not give the realistic foundation loads, and the load take-down, the traditional load take-down will not do that either, at least in more complex systems. And so, the engineer has the possibility to, very fast, check these two ways of analysis, and then decide how to dimension the foundations, or how to design the columns.

THOMAS FINK: Yes. So, we organized these different analysis models within this Revit database, and the second benefit I want to show you now is how we combine information from analysis with information stored in the Revit database. So we are using this information to group the columns according different types, and according different loading states, or different utilization factors, to organize them into different loading, different checking groups, so to say.

So I switched back to the 3D system, and start designing this column. The columns size, or starts designing the columns in the basement here. You see here. So, we are assigning all the columns in the basement to a design group, and where they will be designed together, or checked together, so we'll have to reinforce those combinations in the design.

But I do not calculate the design right now, I just use preliminary, or these results being calculated by the nominal curvature method, re-read them into Revit, to organize, to reorganize this design group, this group later into two different groups. One group's consisting of the highly loaded columns, and the other group consisting of the lower loaded columns.

So I have-- When, for example, selecting one of these columns in the basement and checking the properties here, you'll see that we wrote some of the decisive information from this design check into Revit parameters. So for example, the design decides if normal force, the decisive moments, and also the required reinforcement being calculated here. And as this is simply a Revit parameter, we can use this for any kind of task within Revit. So we can use it for drawings, and also within schedules. So it's, now it's going to be a bit difficult to switch. So, now you're here.

So let me switch, I'm switching now to the columns schedule, of all columns, and we extended this schedule with some, with this information here. So, it's a bit small to read. Unfortunately we cannot currently zoom in, but into this column schedule, but I think this is something which will soon be solved by Autodesk.

Yeah. So we have here the columns in the basement, ordered by the amount of required reinforcement. And I can select them, I can select the highly-- I am going to select the highly loaded columns here, and assign them to a different design group now. So column B, highly loaded, and the remaining three lower loaded, or less loaded elements.

And this information is accessible through a tree which we provide within our solution. We call it, the so-called sophisticated design browser, where you can access these different groups. So the highly loaded columns and the lower loaded columns, and now we can do the design again of these, and check the reports.

So, check the reports of these two separate columns. So first report consisting of the highly loaded elements with the reinforcement proposal being seen here. And another column group being checked within this section here. Yeah. And as I said, as we all share, as we store all this information you have seen now, so the analysis settings, as well as this organization of the columns, within Revit, we can share this information, we can upload this information to a central model, or a central model stored within BIM 360, where it can be used from, and further being edited or used by other collaborating parties.

Yeah, how many time do we have now?

ANDREAS: Enough.

THOMAS FINK: Enough, OK.

ANDREAS: You have seven minutes for that slot, still.

THOMAS FINK: OK. Yeah. Yeah, but I think we--

ANDREAS: You're doing-- Filtering?

THOMAS FINK: I think we proceed with reinforcement. Yeah, OK. Will you?

ANDREAS: OK. So, short summary again. Everything we did up to now is in the Revit file. That means, if we synchronize, and the Revit file is a shared file in BIM 360-- So, if we synchronize, everything will be synchronized. And now I introduce Armin. Our design office is currently in Hamburg. Hello, Hamburg. Can you hear me, Armin?

ARMIN: Yes, I can hear you.

ANDREAS: OK, perfect. We can hear you as well. We have a problem with that project, the customer urgently asks us, he needs a drawing sheet for the column in axis A1 tomorrow morning, otherwise we will get fined. So please, don't go home, now it's past midnight in Germany, and please finish that project for us. Can you do that?

ARMIN: Yeah, I hope so.

ANDREAS: OK. So, and show us your screen, please.

ARMIN: Yeah. Hello from Germany, from Hamburg. So I'm sitting here, as you can see, in a very nice wooden and timber roof, on the side of our customers, as I am on business travel and the internet speed in the hotel was not good enough. So I moved to one of our customers.

So I will show you my screen now. So hopefully, you can see my screen.

ANDREAS: Yeah, we see it.

ARMIN: OK, that's good. So, and I will show you now that actually, I have not yet the current version, as Andreas does, the synchronizing of the Revit database a few minutes before. I have already an older situation of the database, so therefore, also I have to move Andreas on the left-hand side. But I have the possibility to show you that in my Revit database, there are no design groups which Andreas has already defined in his database.

But I have from now, the possibility in real time to synchronize my database, also from the cloud, storage, and I will take all the definition Andreas has done. That means settings for the calculation model, results of deformations, design group, definition. I will bring that now to my local model of my computer here in Germany, and I will proceed by using the design results to generate reinforcement elements inside this column.

So let me again show you the design results on my machine, that we can verify that designs are already stored in the Revit database. And then we have the possibility to define the reinforcement directly by using that design result. I will scroll down in this document to give you any idea about the reinforcement we need for that column, and we have now the possibility to use that information with an additional application, which is still running inside the Revit environment to generate reinforcement out of that design results.

So therefore, I will select the column I'd like to reinforce, and I will use the tools to create reinforcement for all the columns which will be part of the design group. So I can now design and reinforce only the high-loaded columns, or the low-loaded columns, or I like to do both at the same time, so therefore I have the possibility to reinforce the high-loaded columns, having some settings, selecting the corresponding design case for that column, and then simply let do, the tool, define the rebar elements in this column, or in all the columns which are part of that design group.

As you can see here, we have some rules, we have some stirrups here, defined in the top of the column, which has less spacing as the stirrups in the middle of the column, because this is part of some design rules. We have some longitudinal bars. We see the bars for sure, also in the plan view, and we have the possibility with some reinforcement tools, also as add-on from statistics over there to detail, or to tag, now, the elements. I will show you that in the longitudinal view, that we have the possibilities to tag all these elements, to have also some shape code base we can define.

And if you take a look, a bit more, to these elements, you can see that there is no bar mark yet, because this is also done with our tool. So I have the possibility to set bar marks for these columns now. I will do that now for the entire project, and for this sheet, to check if we have bars with the same geometry, which gets the same number, of course. If the bars has different geometry, regarding diameter, or also some bending information, we get different bar mark numbers on the sheet. And has the possibility also to define some shape detail to give the manufacturer the possibility to bend the bar on the construction site, or maybe also in his fabrication office.

We can for sure also see the reinforcement in the tree E environment by defining also, maybe some visibility states, get also realistic visualization of that bars, and at the end of the day, for sure, we need some schedule, because this is needed by the manufacturer to provide a corresponding information about the bending information. As you can see, we sum up all the information for the bar marks we need for that sheet, and for sure, we get also a graphical representation by defining all the parameters we need to bend the bar, with maybe also a bending machine.

And last but not least, we have also the possibility to create machine data to send directly to the machine. And if you had now a machine in your room, I could provide you that file to directly create the machine, what we have done also some years ago in Autodesk presentation. I thought, I think it was in Dublin and the bending machine was in Mexico, and we have done same live interaction by bending some rebars in real time.

So that was the presentation from my side, and I think I can again hand over to Andreas. I'd like to thank you, and hope you enjoy the view in Las Vegas for a few days.

ANDREAS: Yeah. Thank you, Armin.

THOMAS FINK: Thank you. Don't forget to upload what you did.

ARMIN: Yeah, you are right. Thank you, Thomas, for that. I have to synchronize again, to push all the information to Andreas, that's correct. I will do that, and I think in some seconds you will get all this data on your machine.

THOMAS FINK: And of course, it's not the biggest engineering problem we solve, but I hope you liked the way, working in two different continents, with nine hours time shift. I think this will become more and more common, and I personally had been totally surprised about the robustness and the speed of this exchange with BIM 360. That's really amazing.

ANDREAS: So just give us a second.

THOMAS FINK: Moment.

ARMIN: What?

ANDREAS: We-- No, no. It's, we are just downloading.

THOMAS FINK: Are you down?

ARMIN: OK.

ANDREAS: So, now, we should see.

THOMAS FINK: You have been too fast.

ANDREAS: Really?

THOMAS FINK: Because I actually wanted--

ANDREAS: No. I'm not.

THOMAS FINK: No, but I wanted to demonstrate that the rebar was not in it before, so we don't work with a trick. So unfortunately, you have to believe us now. No, but it's really the idea, Andreas taught that with a slide, with a traditional work flow, and normally, we think Revit is for design, or for detailing, and for modeling, and the engineer extracts data and works in his own environment, and then sometimes something goes back, sometimes not. And the idea, to use Revit as a database, also for our input-- So Andreas, maybe you show the mapping of the materials, and the cross sections.

So we have, each engineering package has its own definition of materials, which is not the same like in Revit. And in most cases, the material in Revit only has a name, and not the proper properties. So what we have here, and what's also stored in the database, is a mapping between the Revit material and the SOFiSTiK material. Maybe you say some words to that.

ANDREAS: Yeah. So in general, you do not have every information you need for analysis within the Revit material. So the maximum is, you have that, some of the physical assets being stored there, but you definitely need more of this. And we solve this by mapping analysis materials to Revit materials in an automatic way. So first we automatically detect matching analysis materials, but you can in any case further change the material parameters, the strength, or change the parameter classification at all. So here, same four sections, for example. So we map families, or sections to analysis sections. Again, here we have more than just information in Revit. For example, for analysis we need at least initial section with reinforcement layouts being defined there, and other parameters.

And these parameters are basically dependent on design code, which is also nothing available in Revit by default. So the default, we also need to initialize the system with design code information, first of all, before we can move on to all tasks. So assigning materials, assigning sections, assigning, then doing analysis and design requires proper design code specification, so this is essentially the first step.

So, I didn't start at the very beginning here, since I thought we were running out of time. But let me now start from the beginning. This is the first step. So, when we do analysis in Revit, we need to define the design code, and such kind of parameters. Also, mapping of load natures is being available here.

We also have the possibility to check the analytical model, so this is definitely an issue in Revit, and which definitely also needs to be solved, the analytical model. But we provide a check, which checks whether, for example, there are overlapping elements, walls or slabs are overlapping, so the analytical models are overlapping, or if columns are not aligned properly. And then we have also, within this check, means to highlight these elements, to zoom into these elements, to isolate these elements. So these are the functionality.

And regarding results, we provide export to Excel, and the standard import features. Yeah. What you saw here, this comprises the app we provide, and of course there are also extensions. So when you go further, you can extend this by links then to SOFiSTiK software, where you can do more than only what you have seen here. So, for example, earthquake analysis, and other things.

THOMAS FINK: Yeah. But if you download that from app store and subscribe to it, then this is the only software you need, except Revit. So you don't need any other stuff from SOFiSTiK to do that. And this is, I think, we believe this is, or we know it's a first step. That's not only a belief, and we have a lot of fantasy what else, what nice things we can do in the future with that. Now, the last--

ANDREAS: Should we summarize?

THOMAS FINK: Yeah, the last slide. I think we already said--

ANDREAS: So, here we are.

THOMAS FINK: Something from it. So, we think Revit can be the main authoring tool for engineers. We have a single platform for multidisciplinary collaboration. That is, with Revit, we get a lot of benefits as windfall for products for free. We can, or everyone, everybody able to write software can extend Revit in different ways, and we believe that it's a real benefit for the structural analysis, that it's not longer decoupled from BIM workflow, because the less interfaces you have, the less problems you will have.

ANDREAS: Well, we have 15 minutes time left, and I hope, and I think you will have questions. And if you don't have questions, then we can have a discussion.

AUDIENCE: What codes are supported by the system?

ANDREAS: Pardon?

AUDIENCE: What design codes?

THOMAS FINK: So, for now, regarding the checking, we are providing Eurocode based design codes. Great British, German, Austria, and no American design codes. Regarding the analysis, we do have American ACI for, in the mapping, for example. So we map also to ACI steel shapes, to a certain extent, I would say. So the analysis solution is usable, but not the design and the checking commands, right now.

AUDIENCE: What kind of materials do you calculate? Steel, wood, concrete--

ANDREAS: So basically, we can handle steel and concrete. To a certain extent, also wood, but this solution is basically targeted to concrete design. But when you have, want to do analysis of steel structures, you can do the analysis. But again, it's same with, similar to the checks. We do not provide any steel checks within this app. So we have steel checks within our main software, which you can use as an extension, but here you will-- We currently do not provide any steel checks. We provide means to export forces, for example, which you can run over in other applications.

THOMAS FINK: Yeah, and that's-- And as we can also save these relevant results in the Revit database, it-- My fantasy, or one of the fantasy points is that sometime, someone, for example, in the US wants to extend this analysis functionality with design. And then, if it's concrete, we have the ability to detail it. By the way, not to be misunderstood, what our design offices did needs another license. Any other comments? How do you like the idea, or could we could we bring our new way to work to you? Did you understand what we told?

ANDREAS: Or is it crazy?

AUDIENCE: In general, it makes sense. You're trying to just have everything in one software, right? And obviously, we're waiting for the current [INAUDIBLE] you guys. So, this is [INAUDIBLE] come in, and obviously we can be doing a lot of steel work with it also. So having the steel design checks as part of one software would be ideal.

If you were doing steel and concrete, and you just have one basic software, without importing and exporting. Because importing and exporting, we're already doing that kind of stuff. The whole point is to have everything modeled once, with one software, it's really evolving, and easier to manage.

ANDREAS: Right. But is Revit the basis to your experience? Or can it be the basis for a structural engineer?

AUDIENCE: To have it all in one software?

ANDREAS: Yeah, or is Revit, can it be the basis of the analytical model, in Revit, for example?

AUDIENCE: I believe it can.

AUDIENCE: I'd say it depends on who you're talking to. If you're talking to a firm where you have older engineers, they're not gonna want to get into it. They won't. And if you have a firm where Revit came up through AutoCAD? Oh, that's for the technicians. The engineers don't belong in software. So there's some cultural learning, some cultural changes that'll have to occur.

ANDREAS: Yeah. What I always say, is BIM means that the analysis and design engineers are no more on one floor, and the detailers on another floor. So it has to be, they have to be together for a project. Because using this workflow, the detailer will most likely start, and then the engineer jumps in. Yes, please?

AUDIENCE: Yes. We are already [INAUDIBLE] with the ETABS software, and now currently [INAUDIBLE]

ANDREAS: Can you speak up a little bit? Is there a microphone?

THOMAS FINK: Yeah. Or, no.

ANDREAS: You have a micro--

AUDIENCE: No. [INAUDIBLE] Here. OK.

AUDIENCE: So, we are doing the same kind of--

ANDREAS: I didn't-- [INAUDIBLE]

THOMAS FINK: With ETABS.

ANDREAS: [NON-ENGLISH]

AUDIENCE: [INAUDIBLE]

THOMAS FINK: Oh, let me. Let's do it like this.

AUDIENCE: ETABS incorporates the ACI 318 every four years, so it's a huge amount of data. So we can integrate the Revit with the ETABS it's almost the same, but for us, I think it's much, much better.

THOMAS FINK: So you mean, the amount of data is problematic with ETABS? Or--

AUDIENCE: No, it works, basically. OK.

AUDIENCE: For high rise buildings, you have to spatially [INAUDIBLE] rules. And for that, the, we use the [INAUDIBLE]

ANDREAS: Yeah, yeah. Sure, sure, sure. So you're saying that ETABS can handle this also, large structures, very well.

AUDIENCE: ETABS can also do them at the same time. [INAUDIBLE]

ANDREAS: Oh, no. No.

AUDIENCE: I think this is kind of the type of stuff that he's talking about, right? It, exactly, is that you've got these old-school people that want to stay in ETABS, but new people want to adopt a new software to put in, that's the whole problem--

ANDREAS: Yeah, yeah.

AUDIENCE: And it's true.

ANDREAS: I think it's the same, with ETABS you end up with two different databases.

AUDIENCE: Exactly. And the problem with ETABS, is you develop two separate models. So you've got--

AUDIENCE: No, they're the same.

AUDIENCE: Well, you're using that, the export option, right? Isn't that where you have to do all the licensing? You download it, right? Yeah. So you could also, you could keep doing that, but then, going back and forth, back and forth--

ANDREAS: Yeah, yeah. But you're exporting your data, and adding data there. That's the point, and you cannot collaborate through BIM 360 anymore.

THOMAS FINK: That's it. We didn't want to say that we are the only engineering software being able to handle projects like this, definitely not. So the point is, the different way of thinking, and the different way of data handling. And I think you are quite sure, with the young people, so the future works for us.

AUDIENCE: Well, I'm trying to do it, and I get, they call them silverbacks, the gorillas, silverbacks. Well, I'm--

ANDREAS: Yeah.

AUDIENCE: There go the silverbacks. Yeah. Very hard.

ANDREAS: OK. Other questions, comments? Then, thank you.

THOMAS FINK: Thank you.

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