Transformational Change Through Diversity and Inclusion

CLIFTON COLE: All right. I think we are live. Good morning, or good afternoon. Hope everybody is doing well today. First and foremost, I would like to thank everybody for coming to our panel discussion titled Transformational Change Through Diversity and Inclusion. The theme for this discussion today is building the foundation for inclusion. My name is Clifton Cole. I'm with the PENTA Building Group. I'm director of virtual design and construction here. And I'm excited to be here to continue the discussion on this very important topic with an amazing group of people.

We'll be diving into why diversity, equity inclusion initiatives are important for your business and your organization, how diversity and inclusion drive innovative results, and how leadership can directly play a role in cultivating a culture of diversity and inclusion. The panelists here will embark on their personal journey, share their stories of leading DE&I initiatives in their organizations and community. Our objective is to continue to bring awareness to the importance of building an inclusive workplace by identifying strategies for increasing diversity in our workforce.

We'll also be discussing how to overcome resistance to change, what a potential roadmap to diversity, equity, and inclusion excellence could look like, what the future of the AEC industry looks like with a more inclusive culture. Let's meet our panelists and have them tell a little about themselves. We'll have them tell their names, company, where they're from, a little bit about their background. Let's start with Neetha.

NEETHA PUTHRAN: Sure. Hey, Cliff, and hey, everyone. My name is Neetha. I'm a technical solution executive at Autodesk. I'm not a tech right now, but I used to be in the industry on the architectural and construction side. And my background is really that I was born in India, moved to LA when I was very young. And I was there up until very, very recently. Back when I was out there, I went to a small polytechnic school in California, majored in architecture, minored in business sustainability.

And one thing that I found really interesting about this is that school had a really high rating on the index for social and economic mobility, meaning that it had a high number of low-income students come in that left with high-income jobs. And to answer Cliff's last question, the first time I saw myself represented within the AEC industry wasn't actually until a few years ago, actually. There was a director at one of my previous companies that was also born in India.

And I had never made any sort of contact with him, but it was just so cool to me that I was seeing that for the first time. And now that I'm in tech versus AEC, it is a little different, as well. But since it was so rare there, one thing that I did have to feel comfortable doing really early on is reaching out to people from different backgrounds for myself, and then also building relationships with them, learning from them, and listening to them, which is when I really started to see those opportunities open up. So thanks, Cliff. Glad to be here.

CLIFTON COLE: Awesome. Thank you, Neetha. It's our pleasure. All right. Let's go with Anton. Anton, please tell us a little about yourself-- your name, your company, your job title, where you were born and raised, the educational background, where you went to school at, and what was the first time you saw yourself represented in the industry?

ANTON DYBUNCIO: Thanks, Cole. And hey, Neetha and Bruce. Good seeing you again. I am originally from the Philippines. I was born and raised there, and came to the US for university. I went to Stanford for my industrial engineering degree. I really consider myself an industry outsider because I was brought into the industry through my wife, who was the co-founder of VIATechnik. And my own experiences have always been-- I've always been interested in seeing what can be fixed in this industry based on my experience in previous industries.

And my first exposure to-- being from the Philippines, where it's a very monolithic culture, and there's not a lot of diversity there, I think the first time I really experienced diversity was around this trip I had to South Africa, where they got students from all over the world into one place, and really experiencing the benefits of having diverse points of view. And it's something that has created a lot of value for me in understanding the benefits of it and seeing how that could work in this industry.

CLIFTON COLE: Thank you, Anton. Appreciate that. Last, but certainly not least, Bruce, please tell the audience about you name, your company, your job title, where you were born and raised, your educational background or where you went to school at, and when was the last time you saw yourself represented in this industry?

BRUCE ORR: All right, Cliff. Hey, thank you for allowing me to have this opportunity. And Anton, Neetha, again, it's great to see you too. My name is Bruce Orr. I'm the founder of a construction analytics company called ProNovos, and I'm also the CEO and chief data scientist. We're based in Atlanta. I was born and raised in Atlanta. I have had some amazing opportunities to live abroad. And those experiences really shaped my life views.

I also went to school here. My focus was on computer science, primarily-- and information management and data management. Just like Anton, I kind of found myself being an outsider. However, I grew up around construction. My uncles were in different trades, and they would take me with them on job sites as soon as I was big enough to work a broom. I mean, I loved it as a kid. I was hanging around adults, listening to the crew tell dirty jokes, and I got paid for it.

That was exactly how I wanted to spend my time. But then I had some unfortunate experiences in construction. To be specific, I'll never forget, one time, I was in college. It was summer, down in the Georgia heat. I mean, really, really hot. If you've never been to Georgia in August, it could be unbearable with the humidity. And I was working on a roof. It was a pretty bad experience for me.

I was working with a group of people that was insensitive to me. I guess, just to cut through the BS, it was some pretty racist good old boys, and they showed the racism. And I never went back after that. I kind of felt like I didn't want to go back. But 10 years ago, I found myself back in this space. I identify with the opportunities to improve things in this space as it related to lack of connectivity between applications and just helping within the space. Yeah. I've been back for about 10 years, and I'm loving it.

CLIFTON COLE: Perfect. Thank you, Bruce. Appreciate that. Let's-- I'm super excited to get into this discussion. I first want to start off with, we definitely want to take questions from the audience. Please put your questions in the Questions section of the platform. And we will address those at the end of the panel discussion. Jumping right on in, I want to start with Bruce. My first question for you is, why are diversity, equity, and inclusion issues important for your business and organization?

BRUCE ORR: That's a difficult question. I used to think that my personal life and my business life were separate. I remember, as a kid, I watched this classic movie-- you probably have heard about it or seen it-- The Godfather. There's this famous quote in the movie that said, "It's not personal, it's just business." And I tried to find that to hold true in my life, but it was never the case for me. I've been working in my field for over two decades, so I've had time to reflect and understand just how closely my personal and professional lives are interconnected.

Let me elaborate on that. I'll take you back to like the '90s and early 2000s. I'll try to be brief with this, but please bear with me. As a kid, just graduated, and I couldn't wait to jump into my field of study. Computers were not that ubiquitous at the time, and the internet was still in its infancy. However, the demand for computer engineers started to increase.

And the general school of thought was that if you were really good at the tech stuff-- things like programming, networking, and databases-- everything else would take a backseat. It didn't matter how you looked, what your makeup was. If you're just good at this thing, that is what counted. Unfortunately, that was not the case for me and many of my cohorts. Discrimination in the recruiting process, it still happened. I mean, it was undeniable.

Here's an example. We would show up for a job fair. A group of us would be called in for interviews. And the person who got the job was the person that looked like the interviewer. I'm not saying that they were not the best candidate, but you had a group of kids that were first-generation college graduates that were hungry, and more than anything in life, wanted an opportunity to prove themselves. See, what I knew that the employers didn't know was that these kids would do whatever it took to get the job done.

And when you have someone working for you like that, it translates into high productivity. Eventually, I was given an opportunity to enter the workforce by a large corporation. And I'm going to get to your question. This large corporation was not what I expected. Intentional or not, I felt alienated for the first 12 months of employment, and I never felt included in the company's culture.

And my response to that was to put my head down and make myself indispensable. And I wasn't happy there. I wanted to gain as much knowledge and experience as possible so that I could find new employment with a company that made me feel like I belonged. I said that to say that I read a statistic recently that stated, it takes something like six to nine months of an employee's salary to replace them. And that's pretty significant.

Another thing that I want to mention pertains to my last big corporate job. It was a multinational company that had lots of diversity. I mean, they celebrated holidays that I didn't even know existed. And it felt like they really championed inclusion on the surface. However, it was kind of-- how can I say it? Unofficially, everyone knew what the glass ceiling looked like. And I think even now, they may call it the frozen middle. And it was also against corporate policy to openly discuss your compensation. But it was a joke, because everyone knew that equal pay for equal work was not real.

I said all of that to say this. My firsthand experience has shaped my views about diversity, equity, and inclusion. And when you feel undervalued, and when you know that you're not treated equally in the workplace, it hurts. And that hurt just doesn't stay at the workplace. You bring that home with you. And it affects your self-worth. And honestly, I don't want anyone to go through that if I can help it. That's why, for me-- the main reason why diversity, equity, and inclusion is important to me in my business is because I want to make people feel like they are valued.

The last reason is, it's just good business sense. I mean, our employees are happy because they know that we care about them no matter what their physical makeup is. And that happiness and care, it shows up in our products, our service, and most importantly, in customer satisfaction. Sorry for the long-winded answer, but there you go.

CLIFTON COLE: No, thank you. We appreciate your openness and detail in answering the question, Bruce. But you made some great points, and especially when you talk about wanting a sense of belonging. And so I want to jump to Anton. Anton, being the CEO of VIATechnik, what are you doing, or what is your company doing, to make some easy-to-replicate programs if you put in place and make a difference for people to feel like they belong?

ANTON DYBUNCIO: Yeah. Thanks, Cliff. And I want to build on some of what Bruce mentioned here about, hey, the leadership team really needs to value diversity, equity, and inclusion for things to work. And that's something that, at VIATechnik, our leadership team is very aligned that this is important, for many of the same reasons that Bruce mentioned here. It's the right thing to do as a human being, but also, from a business perspective, it just makes sense. The whole industry is experiencing a talent shortage right now.

And if you're not experiencing a talent shortage, let me know, because maybe you guys are doing something that we're not aware of. But with that, it's like, I'd say the key thing is, try and get the leadership team to align and support these efforts. Otherwise, it's going to feel very hard. And there's many ways to engage the leadership team politically. I mean, just hearing about Bruce's story about him being the hungriest person in the room, and him not getting that opportunity-- I think it's like, hey, leadership team, you guys are struggling right now to find talent. And we should be looking broader, and looking for candidates who can really help the organization move forward.

That aside, some of the things we're doing here at VIATechnik, we're not a very large company. I think if we can do it, a lot of other companies can do the same. One thing is, we started with a very data-driven approach. We wanted to know, how are we doing? So we issued a survey and to our team around different topics around diversity, equity, and inclusion to try and understand, how are we doing as a baseline, and where can we improve from there?

That's very easy. And that's very visually telling to the team. It's like, either you're doing well or you have room for improvement. In our case, it looked like, hey, things are going fine. But then it also opened up a lot of things that, OK, here are things we can improve. And here are areas where we can start the discussion to improve. I think surveys are a great, easy way to start.

Incorporating things into weekly processes gives it wheels, as well. One of the things we do now in our team meetings, in our small group meetings, is having a component that focuses on, how do we get people to open up and feel connected to each other? And there's exercises around diversity and equity and inclusion in there that you can do. And it's actually fantastic. One thing that one of our team members did in her meeting was, tell me more about your name, why it's awesome, who gave it to you, and what it means.

And I was just sitting in that meeting-- I sit around our teams meetings, adding very little value, and I listen. And it's just amazing how people really opened up about why they're special. And just learning that, it is great to see the faces in the room. And then I think it's just, highlight and celebrate team members from different backgrounds. Those things are very easy to start and get people connected. These are some things we see, that we've started to do at VIATechnik, that have opened up the discussion, gotten people to open up, gotten people to feel more connected.

CLIFTON COLE: That's great. I'm actually taking notes now, because I'm going to have to implement that into my company. That is awesome. Thank you, Anton, for providing that insightful information. And I know-- we've also implemented some other programs. And one program I think we're currently on the journey of is trying to focus on mentoring, and making sure that's a part of our D&I journey. I want to jump to Neetha, because I know she's also passionate about mentoring, as well. Neetha, my question for you is, why is mentoring critical to building a diverse workplace?

NEETHA PUTHRAN: Yeah. Right back to what Bruce and Anton were talking about, it is much harder to actually replace the employee than to keep them happy where they are. And what a lot of employees want right now-- I think Bruce mentioned, and Anton touched on it too-- is that they want that sense of self-worth, that they're actually providing value to their company and they also want a path to grow. They don't want to hit that glass ceiling. Really, what mentorship provides is a really impactful way to do this. The right mentor can basically help you grow within your own company.

They can help you understand things like what leadership looks like, what good behavior-- or what behavior at all gets promoted and recognized. Also help expand your network to key decision-makers that actually can help you get promoted. These mentors can also sometimes be sponsors that open up other doors. And the problem is that not everyone has access to this. Within the industry, for example, there might be one female on the C-suite, and there might be a lot of entry level females. And it doesn't make sense for that one woman to try to mentor everyone.

And I've personally, in my career, been really lucky to have a lot of really great mentors that come from all walks of life, whether they're male or female, that have really helped me navigate certain opportunities and challenges. But I realize that not everyone just has this luxury out of nowhere. Some of my-- even some of my well-intentioned mentors, for example-- they've been candid to me about being naturally drawn to employees that have certain similarities to themselves. And that's a hard mindset to break out of, because as humans, we just kind of are drawn to similarities.

And for example, a man might sometimes be uncomfortable being perceived as spending too much time one-on-one with a woman. Or maybe there's a group at work that bonds over golf, and boys' nights, and locker room talk, and being from the same town. It really is just human nature to find these commonalities in the workplace. They're usually very superficial traits that folks that might not fit that mold to fall back and help them grow. And this is why I think structured mentorship is so much more helpful than the traditional organic approach.

It very intentionally puts a group of people together who might all be very, very different from one another, and it forces everyone in that group to try to find commonalities where they otherwise might not have seen any, or looked it over-- and then also listen, and learn, and talk to each other. And when I did this, there were director-level folks, interns, project managers. And every single person in that group had something to teach and learn. And because of this, the organic conversations that come out of it are very beneficial to everyone, no matter what level they're in.

And if you're in a group like that, that comes from all different walks of life, it can be a challenge for every single person group to think differently, to empathize, to solve problems together. And then a lot of those solutions and ideas that come out of it are very creative. All that to say, it just helps build this inclusive culture where everyone feels like they belong, but also have a path forward. So they're more likely to stay, feeling comfortable speaking out to you, to better your business.

CLIFTON COLE: Yeah, I agree 100%. I've had some tremendous mentors in my career that helped me get to where I have gotten to today. And I feel that it's my role and responsibility, as a leader in this company-- and we are starting to use a term cultural leaders here at our company-- to help facilitate those mentorings, make it more structured.

Because, again, we do have a very diverse workforce-- a very talented workforce, as well. And we want to make sure that we're providing them all the resources they have to be successful. Thank you for that, Neetha. Following up with that, I just want to jump back to Bruce. Bruce, being CEO of your organization, what role do you play in cultivating a culture of inclusion?

BRUCE ORR: Yeah. Since I am the founder, I play a pretty significant role. However, creating a culture of inclusion is a difficult thing to do when you're building a company. Early on, I found myself perpetuating some of the same unconscious-- maybe even conscious biases-- that I talked about earlier. And, Cliff, I mean the same-- like, exact same biases. Give you an example. When I looked for my first sales hire, I consciously looked to hire a white male. And I'm ashamed of saying that, but I felt that because most decision-makers in commercial construction are white males, they would more than likely buy from someone that looked like them.

And that might be mostly true, but that's not entirely the case. It's not always the case. I had to check myself. I had to look deep within and say, I need to find the best candidate, no matter how they look, and just ensure that, if we share the same values-- like being kind, having rigorous transparency, being honest, and treat people fairly-- it will all work out in the end. And the last thing that I'll say on this is, I know that it starts from the top. But sometimes, it's hard to ensure that it is always felt throughout the company.

And that's why I always hire leaders. And for those that are sitting in, I would say that no matter what your position that you have, you're a leader. And from my perspective, you're more effective when you are a humble leader. To create a culture of inclusion, you have to listen, you have to learn, and you have to lead, which brings me back to something that Neetha said about mentoring. I think it's important that our experience as leaders-- we need to mentor our new hires. And I can't stress the importance of that enough.

CLIFTON COLE: I agree 100%. And we're looking at a term called reverse mentoring, and to be able to, as Neetha mentioned, to start to develop that structured mentoring program. And there is a question in the chat that we're going to get to in a little bit that kind of talks about that. Just as a reminder, if you have any questions, please put them in the

Questions area, and we will get to those at the end of this panel discussion. With that, you kind of started to lay out a good roadmap there, Bruce and Neetha and Anton. Anton, I wanted to kind of continue down this path. For you specifically, what does a potential roadmap to DE&I excellence look like?

ANTON DYBUNCIO: Thanks, Cliff. Definitely, mentorship falls in there. And I'll touch on that, based on what Neetha and Bruce mentioned here. But I think it starts with setting a framework as to why DE&I is important, and a framework that other people in the organization can understand-- setting a framework for diversity, setting a framework for inclusion, being able to communicate that to the team. It's important to make sure that the whole organization is aligned-- or at least, most of the organization is aligned-- into lining up to that initiative.

One thing I mentioned earlier is being data-driven. Have the data to support where you can improve, what you're doing well, so you can celebrate the wins, but then focus on, OK, hey, we're doing great in these areas. But how do we do better in certain areas? One great piece of advice that I got from you, Cliff, was also peeling the layers of the onion and going beyond the data. Now that you have the data, look into what that data means. Have those conversations with people, and reach out to colleagues, internal team members, and ask what can be done to improve the areas that might have been missed in the survey.

And then I think, start to measure and establish what success looks like. Make this a component of your annual metrics tracking. At VIATechnik, we use OKRs, which is setting up objectives and key results and metrics. And incorporating a component of DE&I in that makes sure that you put wheels into the program, and that people focus on thinking about, how do we improve this? How do we make this-- how do we improve outcomes here?

And then finally, as leaders, I think it's very important what Neetha and Bruce brought up about mentors. It's, leaders and business owners also need mentors and colleagues who have gone through this journey. And ask them for advice. I've been very fortunate to be included in this group with Bruce, Neetha, and Cliff. And as we've been preparing for this panel over the past few months, it's been great to hear their different perspectives, and what they're doing, and what's working.

I feel like I'm going to inject myself into their lives in the future and continue to ask them for advice. Because it's like, hey, I've been so fortunate to be in this room with the three of them. And they all know a lot about this topic. And now it's like, by no means am I an expert. And other leaders should still continue to look into, who can help me understand why this is important, how to make this, how to improve, so then you skip this step of making the same mistakes. That's my roadmap.

CLIFTON COLE: Thanks, Anton. I agree. It's been absolutely a pleasure, over the last couple of months, to be able to work with each of you. You definitely have an impact on my life. And this is one of the reasons why I love this industry, that we can all come together from different backgrounds, different experiences, different perspectives, and collaborate on a discussion like this on a platform like this. Again, as I always likes to say, I appreciate each and every one of you. Thank you very much. With that, I'd like to jump back to the mentoring. And Neetha, what advice would you give to somebody in the audience looking to establish a mentoring program in your organization?

NEETHA PUTHRAN: Yeah. I think that goes back to what Anton was saying. It probably has a very similar structure. I think one person-- you mentioned this, Cliff-- is like being really intentional about the outcome first. We really have to define what that outcome that we're looking to get to is in order to actually get deliberate about the steps that we need to take to actually get there.

For example, if your outcome might be improving diversity and retention at your office, employing something like that mentoring program, bringing together people that you know have a positive influence, and feed off of each other, teach and learn from each other, structuring those groups in that manner, I think, will be very beneficial for that.

And then the next step, like Anton was doing at his company, basically having something to measure that, make sure that has a meaningful impact. Like mentoring, for example. It's really easy just to check off the box and say, we've done seed mentoring. We're done. But making sure that it has a long enough time span to actually have that impact is very important. And then actually having a way to actually measure that success.

CLIFTON COLE: Nice. I like it. That's something that we're trying to do in our company, as well. And measuring that success and being very intentional, that's in our-- will be in our mission statement to make sure that, as a company, we're all on the same page.

ANTON DYBUNCIO: Cliff--

BRUCE ORR: Oh, sorry.

CLIFTON COLE: Go ahead, Anton.

BRUCE ORR: Go for it.

CLIFTON COLE: Go for it.

ANTON DYBUNCIO: I was just going to say, actually, I ended up learning a lot from what you were doing at PENTA around all of these different programs, and was hoping you could actually just share to the audience, hey, what are some of the key things even that a large organization can do? And you seemed to have been able to make an impact in this large organization. How do you do that?

CLIFTON COLE: Oh, I wasn't ready for this. OK.

ANTON DYBUNCIO: I like throwing the curve ball.

CLIFTON COLE: Yeah, I see. OK. Well, I guess, to start, my day job is virtual design construction. Everybody calls me the BIM guy. That's what I do 9:00 to 5:000. But I've been asked before, when have I been on this-- when did I start this diversity and inclusion journey? And I said, oh, since the day I-- from the day I went-- I remember, in elementary school, I had a situation that impacted my life. At six years old, I had to deal with blatant racism.

And that, at the time, being a young man, and not knowing how to express my feelings and emotions, that impacted me tremendously. Over the course of my career, over the course of my life, I've always tried to treat people the way I want to be treated. That's the way I kind of was raised. And have empathy for all people, regardless of what race, gender, creed, religious background that you have. For me, when I came to PENTA, at the time, I was one of the few, if not, I think, the only black engineer at the company.

And like Bruce said, I was just excited to be here. I was excited to have a job. I was like, I can't believe I graduated from college, and I was able to work in a profession that I think I like. I haven't really done it before in my career, but I think this is what I want to do. And right off the bat, especially moving from-- originally, I'm from Baltimore, Maryland. And I moved to Las Vegas, Nevada, which for some people, they think it's a culture shock. It really wasn't that bad except for the fact that I was surprised at how diverse the West Coast was compared to the East Coast.

For me, it was always about the grind, trying to be the best engineer I could possibly be and not even thinking about, OK, I need to represent something beyond just who I am as a person. But then, as I continued to grow in my career, I've talked to so many other people and have heard so many stories that it became a passion of mine to be able to stand up for people who don't feel like they have a voice, for people that are struggling with mental health.

Now, again, I'm not a licensed professional in any way, shape or form. I'm just a guy who got into BIM one day because I fell into doing AutoCAD. But from those discussions, from my life experiences, from the things I have actually seen with my own two eyes, it became my mission almost, without even thinking about it, to make sure that I am able to provide the resources, provide the knowledge that I can provide, to be able to push-- in a very respectful and professional way-- to make the change that I want to see.

We talked about, what does the vision look like? And I'm still trying to write that story. I'm still trying to see what that looks like. But I do know that we have a younger generation. At one point in time, we had five generations of people with the company, from people who were ready to retire to interns that were still in high school. Each and every one of those individuals have a story, and a great story to tell. And they are all here to work hard, and to provide for their families, and to make a difference in this industry.

For me, it was very important to make sure that every single individual had opportunity to tell their story, to do what they want to do, to be what they wanted to be. If I was able to kind of take the reins-- and we've had-- our executive director started our diversity council. And she-- and I kind of transitioned over facilitating that council. And for me, it was making sure it's very deliberate about, diversity is important, and inclusion is important, to make sure that each person has that.

We've done training classes. We've done mentoring. We're done unconscious bias. We've done leadership training. A lot of that, it made me-- one thing it definitely made me realize is, I did not know what I didn't know. It kind of fired me up to just start reading more, start to educate myself more on what diversity actually is, and not be so blind about what I think it is, or what I see on social media, or what I on TV, and really start engaging other people that don't look like me, that don't have the same experiences.

In short, I guess I kind of dove in with the same passion that I had when I was asked, hey, we want to do this BIM thing. Can you go figure out what it is and start it for the whole company? And I'm like, uh, OK, sure. I just took that same passion and just kind of continued to drive. And that helped me to step outside of my comfort zone. Because I was starting the VDC department. I had to have a diversity in thought.

I couldn't has had the same approach that I've always had on how to do things, because we were doing something completely different from-- nobody in the company even knew how to do. For me, it took really stepping outside of my comfort zone and really-- we joke around, saying, be comfortable being uncomfortable. With that, and recognizing that everybody else is probably having some sorts of thoughts or feelings like that, how do we make sure that we are including those-- each and every individual to be the best they possibly can be so we can be a profitable and respectful company?

ANTON DYBUNCIO: Love it. Love it.

CLIFTON COLE: Sorry, I got on a tangent there.

BRUCE ORR: Oh, love it, man. It's your passion. I love it.

CLIFTON COLE: We are-- we've got 10 minutes left in the panel, then we want to jump into some of these amazing questions that are coming through. We appreciate everybody's questions, and appreciate the audience for being here. If you have questions, please keep them coming, and we'll get them to them here in a minute.

But I do want to jump back in, because I gave my thoughts and opinions, and one thing that I think is something that we definitely wanted to address is, diversity and inclusion it's a tough topic. We talk about all the time-- and I think even, within that group, it took a little bit for us to get comfortable even having some of these tough conversations. I want to jump to Bruce and kind of ask him, how do you overcome the resistance to change related to diversity and inclusion?

BRUCE ORR: Wow. Yeah. Resistance. What can I say, man? I deal with resistance all of the time. I'm the chair of diversity and inclusion for an organization called Construction Financial Management Association, CFMA. It's a newly formed committee, and I love the work that I'm doing. But I'll just be frank. It has been received with mixed reviews by the members of the organization. I'll give you an example. I'm talking to-- I don't know, it was, like, 70, maybe 100 executives, in a roundtable fashion on Zoom.

And gosh, let me say, I hope next year, it's in person. I know everyone is Zoomed out, so I appreciate the people attending. But-- so I'm talking to these executives, and I'm, like, five minutes into my talk. And this lady, she interrupts. And it was like, ugh, I'm so tired of hearing about diversity, equity, and inclusion. Is that OK? And let me tell you, I was already nervous. I'm speaking to everyone. I'm just trying to talk about something that I know already will be met with resistance. I had to have my composure. I had to find it.

But I tried my best, as a professional, to say to her, it's OK. I get it. Because what we're talking about is change. And for some people, the status quo is just fine. It's OK. Let's not change that. But what I always remember is, change will not happen without talking about it. So I did not have the time to really talk to her about why she was tired about hearing about it.

I just had to give her somewhat of a short answer and just say, it's OK. I would say that, if someone is resisting change, I need-- personally, I need to make sure that I'm mentally, emotionally-- and I'll just say, if I'm being honest with myself, I need to be spiritually conditioned so that I'm prepared to listen humbly and encourage a healthy dialogue. That's where it starts. We need to talk to one another. Because diversity and inclusion has also found its way on the political stage.

I sometimes try not to use that term, and I speak more from a sense of creating a culture of caring for your fellow human being. It's harder to argue with caring about someone versus, hey, I just want to be included because I've felt excluded all of my life. And I think that dealing with resistance is always going to be something that we have to deal with. I will say this, though. It is a marathon. And we have to be ready to participate in the marathon.

I hope that we will not have to continue to talk about it decades from now, because it won't be needed. But if we keep talking about it, the next generation will not be tired of hearing about it, because they won't know anything different. And at the end of the day, I hope that everyone can have the same opportunities that the next person has-- not because of how you look or how you identify with yourself in terms of gender. I don't know. Listen, let me just stop and just-- I'll stop. How about that?

CLIFTON COLE: No, I appreciate your passion. I can definitely relate. I love when you talk about creating a culture of care, because that is part of the vision that I foresee in the future. I wanted to ask Neetha her thoughts on, what does the future of the AEC industry look like with a more inclusive culture?

NEETHA PUTHRAN: Yeah. I think that kind of goes back to what Anton was saying in that there is a talent shortage everywhere in the industry right now. And we aren't recruiting broad enough and retaining those people through the ranks. First, with a more inclusive culture, there is an answer to the talent shortage. There's more diversity through those ranks, maybe younger folks are more attracted to and actually happy in the industry actually staying. And when they're there, the reaction might help them speak for new ideas, change, and respect for one another.

It's a very relationship-driven industry. And the better relationships you have with one another, the more you're able to win work-- better work-- finish jobs faster and under budget, essentially, be better for your business. But honestly, the way that the AEC industry is set up right now, it's very antagonistic against one another. It automatically causes friction between different stakeholders. And a new way of thinking collaboratively to solve all of these problems is very much needed. And the way that we get there is to bring in diversity of ideas and perspectives.

CLIFTON COLE: Can't agree with you more, Neetha. Thank you very much. I want to finish up with Anton before we jump into these questions that we have here. Anton, final answer. What is your biggest piece of advice for getting started with DE&I?

ANTON DYBUNCIO: I'll make this quick so we can jump into the questions. But it's really twofold. One is, don't wait. Get the ball rolling today. Figure out, what are the things I can do today to make this happen? That's number one. And then number two is, we really are all leaders. I was looking at the attendee list here, and there's people who are starting out their careers, there are people who are mid-level managers, there are people who are more senior executives.

And the biggest thing that we can do is-- I'm sure a lot of-- or at least, I'm hopeful that a lot of the companies that are represented here have these DE&I programs. Be supportive of the change. I mean it's really, really hard. And the last thing people who are focused in this area, who are working hard to make things happen, it's really hard if people aren't engaged, people don't sound interested, no one says things like, hey, great job at getting the team together talking about this. Be supportive, because that will motivate the champions and the people in the organization to keep pushing this through, because it benefits everyone.

CLIFTON COLE: Awesome. Thanks, Anton. Appreciate it very much. We have some great questions. And is the group ready to answer some questions?

BRUCE ORR: Sure.

CLIFTON COLE: All right. We've got 11 minutes. Let's start with Claire. Claire, we appreciate your question. And we're seeing that you're active on the chat, so thank you very much for your engagement. Claire is asking, how is corporate diversity and inclusion expertly managed so that it does not have internal patterns of removing employees which may not superficially fit the ideals? For example, would be, how do older Caucasians not become targets for removal by younger staff? It's a great question.

ANTON DYBUNCIO: Could I chime in around this-- I think it's setting the framework. Are you trying to improve diversity by pushing out people so that the metrics look good? Then I think the framework is broken. Because at least in the AEC industry, the more senior members in the teams have all of this experience. It's like, don't push them out, because the knowledge comes out with them too. There's value to that. I think it's trying to figure out, what is the framework for our program, and how do we not that improve the metrics for metrics' sake? Because that's what it sounds like is happening. I don't know.

CLIFTON COLE: Yeah, I agree. I mean, at least in my personal experience, our business would not survive if we didn't have seasoned in leadership. What I am saying is, regardless of race, people who have been in the industry a long time, the younger generation is trying to gravitate to them. I think we're kind of-- more to the point that Neetha was making.

We want to be able to engage in conversation, and have mentors that can show us how it should be done, the experiences they have, the trials and tribulations they've been through, so we don't necessarily make the same mistakes that they've been through so we can improve the industry. I don't see that-- at least in my perspective, I don't see that happening at all. I see more of it-- the younger generation wants to engage the more seasoned. Neetha, do you have additional thoughts?

NEETHA PUTHRAN: I was just going to agree. I don't think it's about pushing anyone out, but more so creating a more inclusive culture, especially as you're funneling different sorts of people and different opinions in. And in order for those two to mix, like what's been happening and what's new, is just an open conversation and the diversity of perspectives.